ふらいんぐうぃっち | Week 2 Discussion 🧹

Pages 20 - 35

Chapter 1: 6年振りの不思議

Start Date: 26th October
Last Week: Chapter 1 Part 1
Next Week: Chapter 2

ふらいんぐうぃっち Home Thread

We’re reading to the end of chapter 1 this week!


Vocabulary List

Please read the editing guidelines in the first sheet before adding any words!


Discussion Guidelines

  • Please use spoiler tags for major events in the current week’s pages and any content from later in the book/series, like so: [spoiler]texthere[/spoiler]

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By the way, Kei is indeed dropping る (turning into っ) in front of k- sounds (that is, か行). I think it might be obvious since we talked about it in the previous thread, but just in case.

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My learning note on page 22 (25/163)

First try = I misread んじゃー千夏に案内させるよ。as んじゃー千夏に案内きせるよ。

Second try = I failed searching for the related grammar きせる. Of course I misread it.

Third try = I’m not satisfied with the English translation (I have the English version now, I also read the vocab sheet, but please note that I think (arrange sentence) differently than English native spaker) because I want to know the literal translation. Just like when @Darcinon explains also in literal translation from Japanese to English, or like when A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar book gives both English translation and literal translation. So that I know how to think in Japanese grammar directly without translating first to [insert a language I know/use here].

I failed searching the related grammar on BunPro. If anyone here also uses BunPro, please let me know the grammar point so I can look into it.

Fourth try = I searched on DBJG and found it. It’s on page 387. Cmiiw.

saseru. cause s.o. / s.t. to do s.t. or cause s.t. to change its state.

So from んじゃー千夏に案内させるよ。

I guess this sentence omitted unnecessary known subjejct, I’m guessing it comes from this んじゃー、(真琴は)千夏に案内させるよ。

Literal translation : Well, you (could) cause/make/let Chinatsu guide you (there).

Fifth try: Found its reference (I think) on page 137. A Handbook of Japanese Grammar Patterns for Teachers and Learners.

Cmiiw.

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Turns out Makoto is a witch! Who would have guessed?! And she was flying in this chapter! You might even say she’s a flying witch!

Anyway, Makoto was able to win over Chinatsu pretty fast :wink:

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Contains spoiler

and also after Makoto brought Chinatsu on their new broom. I saw there’s transition in Chinatsu’s character. At first, she seemed to be confused by Makoto’s ability (to may be able to speak with Chito) then isourou then …

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This form (“let someone do/make someone do”) is called “causitive” (from the word “cause”, as in “cause someone to do”). It’s hard to find in Bunpro if you don’t know this name.

https://bunpro.jp/grammar_points/153

Here, the noun 案内 becomes a verb with する, as 案内する. The causitive form of する is させる.

  • 案内する = to show (Makoto) around
  • 案内させる = to make (Chinatsu) show (Makoto) around

It can also be (loosely) translated as “Let Chinatsu show you around.”

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Wait, does that mean I’m wrong to expect a story about indecisive short-order cooks: “Frying Which”? I may have to rethink learning Japanese now…

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Disclaimer: I am very much a learner, so if you see any mistakes, please don’t hesitate to point them out to me.

Here are some of my recommended grammar points to know for this week’s reading.

Page 20

On page 20, Makoto says, 「どうかしたですか千夏ちゃん?」 This ん is the “explanatory の”. What does “explanatory” mean here? In this case, because it is in a question, Makoto is “seeking explanation”. Some people also call this the “clarifying の”, as Makoto is “seeking clarificaiton” on why Chinatsu is looking away from the table. When the “explanatory の” is used in a statement (rather than a question), it is to “provide explanation” (or “provide clarification”).

Page 21

Other examples of the explanatory の used in a question appear on page 21, when Kei asks, 「なんか買う?」 as well as near the bottom of the page when Makoto inquires, 「どのくらい掛かるですか?」

Also in that line, the word くらい is used to refer to an approximtion. 「どのくらい掛かるんですか?」 Here, a combination of どの and くらい result in an expression どのくらい to mean “how far”. Kei’s response, 歩きで20分くらい use くらい to mean “about 20 minutes by foot”.

In the middle of page 21, Makoto uses the verb 「揃えておこう」. The following is taking place here:

  1. The base verb is (そろ)う (to gather).
  2. It’s made potential as 揃える (by replacing the ending う with える). This gives a sense of “can gather” to “to be able to gather”.
  3. It’s then made conjuntive, by replacing the final る with て. This allows joining another verb with it.
  4. The joined verb is ()く. When attached to another verb in this way, it is typically written without kanji (おく), and conveys the meaning of doing something in advance, or in preparation for later. We don’t really have this in English, but it could be used in Japanese if you’re reviewing your WaniKani leeches in preparation to level up by the end of the week, or if you’re learning a cafe menu in advance of being a barista. You’re doing the action of the verb now specifically to make use of it later.
  5. Finally, おく becomes the volitional おこう. Violitional has the meaning of “shall” or “let’s”, as in “I shall do this” or “let’s do this”.
  6. In all, this means Makoto plans to 色々揃えておこう, to gather (and buy) various things she’ll need later.
Page 22

Earlier posts covered this, but on page 22 we see the causitive form of a verb, which is used when “causing” someone to do something. In English, depending on the sentence, the word “let” or “make” could be used. “Hm, then, let Chinatsu show you around.” “Hm, then, make Chinatsu show you around.”

In the second panel on page 22, we see って being used to mark an indirect quote: 「今日ヒマだって言ってたし」 This is like “said” in English, which can also be used for an indirect quote. “You said you didn’t have anything to do today.”

In this same line, 「今日ヒマだって言ってたし」 the verb 言う (“to say”) is joined with the verb いる (“to be”). The two verbs are joined by putting the first into its て form (言って) and attaching いる (言っている). This form is similar to “saying” in English. However, because Kei is talking about something that Chinatsu “was saying” earlier, it appears as past tense. The past tense for いる is いた, resulting in 言っていた. Finally, it’s common to drop the い from 「ている」 when spoken, which gives the final 「言ってた」 seen here. (This is also seen in Chinatsu’s line at the bottom of the page: 売ってる, from 売っている.)

The next panel has Chinatsu asking, 「お兄ちゃんは?」 This is an example of where the “contrastive は” gets its name. Kei was talking about Chinatsu (with her being free and all). In response, Chinatsu asks about Kei. This is to contrast his schedule with hers: is he not also free for the day?

Chinatsu’s line in the second-to-last panel (still on page 22) includes くれる. When attached to another verb, it conveys the idea of someone doing something for you. In this case, it is 買ってくれる, meaning “buy for me”. You use くれる when someone “gives” you something (such as buying donuts for you).

The final panel here uses くらい again, although it appears as ぐらい here. Saying 「ドーナッツぐらいおごらせてください」. In this context, it has a meaning as “at least”, as in “Please let me treat her to donuts at least.”

Page 23

On page 23, Kei says 「オレもドーナッツ食べたい」 The たい form of a verb is used to express that the speaker wants something. (You wouldn’t use it to say someone else wants something.)

Page 25

Page 25 shows an example of where an unspoken subject can be used for humor. When Makoto tells Chinatsu, 「迷子になるから離れちゃだめですよ」 “Don’t wonder off, or ??? will get lost,” it’s clear who Makoto expects to get lost. However, because Makoto didn’t specify who would be doing this (with the が particle), it leaves Chinatsu to ask who she’s talking about that will be the one wondering off and getting lost. 「どっちが?」 (See the が particle?)

In English, perhaps this can be translated as:

“It’s easy to get lost, so don’t wonder off.” “Which of us are you talking to?”

Page 26

Over on page 26, Makoto hands her shopping bag to Chinatsu, and asks, 「ちょっと待ってもらえますか」 The verb もらう is used when you “have someone do a favor for you”, and its potential form もらえる, conveys “being able to have someone do a favor for you”. You use もらえる when you “receive” something from someone. In this case, Makoto is asking if she is able receive the favor of Chinatsu waiting a moment for her. “Can you wait a moment for me?”

How do くれる and もらえる differ when attached to a verb?

  • くれる: Can you do me a favor by doing something?
  • もらえる: Can I receive a favor of you doing something?

These often come out the same in English translations, so for some people (such as myself) it’s a matter of repeated exposure to the two in native material to get a feel for when each us used and the nuance they carry.

Related reading: http://maggiesensei.com/2016/05/19/how-to-ask-for-a-favor-make-a-request/

Page 29

Following after her broom test, on page 29 Makoto says, 「乗ってれば慣れるかな?」 There are a few things happening with the first verb here.

First, there is a dropped い. The first verb is 乗る (“to ride”) + いる, for 乗っている (“riding”). Second, the verb いる becomes the “provisional” いれば. The provision is whether/if the verb’s action is performed. “If I ride”.

Page 32

On page 32, Kei says, 「まぁ会えばわかるべ」. This involves the provisoinal form again, where 会う (“to meet”) becomes 会えば (“if/when to meet”). The final particle べ is a regional dialect that indicates speculation. What he’s saying is “probably” the case. “Well, if you meet her, you’ll probably understand.”

Page 33

The word ので comes up on page 33. This word means “because”, and states that the reason given before ので is why they took the action after said ので. Various ways to translate Makoto’s line 「上から見えたので降りてきました」 include:

  • “I saw you from above which is the reason we came down.”

  • Because I saw you from above, we came down.”

  • “We came down because I saw you from above.”

In English, it often reads more naturally to flip the sentence around, as seen in third translation above.

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aww no Page 24…boo Haha

I’m very grateful for the help on that silly N1 grammar from @Naphthalene last week. That grammar point is rather interesting…I can se why it’s N1, even though it’s common. Conceptually it could be (and I think it was) difficult to comprehend. In any case…picked up the book again this morning

Probably an easy question but eh… why not ask

Page 24

横浜ってトコから来たんですよ。
I get that she’s saying she’s from the Yokohama district but the only place I’ve seen the って used was informal quotations but that isn’t the right grammar use here (at least I didn’t think so). Since you have been posting up so much grammar help, figured I’d reply and see if you could point me to the correct grammar point on bp. :slight_smile:

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Page 24

My understanding is that this is indeed the informal quotation marker って. 「I’ve come from the place (called) “Yokohama”」From what I understand of the conversation, she’s quoting Yokohama because she’s unsure whether Chinatsu has heard of this place before - that’s why Chinatsu replies with “Oh, I know of Yokohama”. If she was sure Chinatsu knew of the place, she’d probably have just gone with 「横浜から来たんですよ」, or something.

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Very helpful… If I could only stop overthinking stuff too much haha :slight_smile:

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(I don’t know how to do the drop down stuff, so I’ll just spoil it)
Also not really a point of grammar, but adding on to what you said

I feel like the way Chinatsu replied with both Yokohama and Tokyo [I don’t have the book in front of me for reference but I’m 99% sure she said Tokyo?] in Katakana makes it more known that Makoto was being really condescending in a way by using the って relating to where she was from - ie, she knew exactly where they were

Buuuuut that’s just my take on things! :smiley:

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ありがとうございました
(I’m gunna admit I’m a little dumb to this forum-type since I’m still relatively new to actually posting, LOL)

I did start to include instructions for how to do drop-down sections as well as blur spoilers in the discussion guidelines a while back, but it got so long-winded I cut it out again :sweat_smile:

But don’t worry about asking how to do forum stuff - gotta start somewhere!

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!! So very very helpful, tyvm! Easily understood and helped a great deal in understanding a few of the more subtle things.


Page 34

Makoto is saying こちらの方, but I don’t get what it means within the sentence. I know she’s introducing herself, but I can’t figure out what こちらの方 means. Probably something along the lines of “This is?”?

Page 29

Makoto says うーんやっぱり竹だとクセが強いですね
the translation on Bilingualmanga website is “Mhhm, bamboo ones do have the biggest quirks” I can’t figure out if this is literally what she says. Now that I’m writing it I had the great idea to look it up in hiragana instead of katakana and it seems to be 癖, which is (bad) habit. So I just solved it myself. xD

Page 26

What the heck is あったあった? Is it the past form of ある twice or something completely different? If it is the former, how would one translate this?

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Stupid Grammar Question - Trying to find the a reference - my japan times grammar dictionaries are failing me :frowning: BunPro didn’t help either…I must be missing something obvious??)

Page 24

落ち着くといいますか
時間がゆっくりといいますか

There is something different about this grammar…I first thought it was just と言いますか but that doesn’t really make any sense…
Did you calm down, did you have time (slow down)?

Looking at the English translation bilingual manga) it looks like it becomes I feel like I can relax, I feel like I can take it easy … which makes sense but I can’t locate a grammar ref for というか that makes this become “I feel like” …Help?

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It’s 〜というか〜というか. Apparently it’s a N1 pattern, but honestly, it feels so common (considering I use it all the fracking time when I speak) that I am a bit baffled as to why they chose to put it into that category.

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Ohhh, I’ve seen this before. Don’t think I’ve ever seen it in ます form before though. :thinking:

@shuly Any reason you didn’t want to just wait a day to post this question in the week 2 thread? I’m not sure it’s a good idea to start posting future questions in the home thread…

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Guess that’s why I was confused… Haven’t seen it before and it looks just like the verb conjugation for 言います :grin:

Umm… すみません。。。Cuz I’m an idiot and thought that we were doing the whole chapter 1 this week :rofl: I just looked at the first post and didn’t realize I was keeping up… I was trying to catch up to the end of the chapter by Fri night. Guess the good news is since I was able to get this far already my reading skills have improved since the last book.

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