それでも歩は寄せてくる | Week 2 Discussion ♟

第02局

Pages 13-20

Start Date: 17th July
Previous Week: 第01局
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それでも歩は寄せてくる - Home Thread

Vocabulary List

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Hello again!

I put some vocab up in the sheet while I read (basically whatever I had to look up to get the meaning of, and that I was sure was correct given the context), but I’m sure there is plenty more vocab that others will want to add.

The chapter was super cute. I love how Ayumu inadvertently embarrasses Urushi/throws her off her guard all the time.

I had a question that I was going to ask, but after looking at it the fifth time, I finally realised I had mixed up whom was actually speaking the sentence. As soon as I realised that, it resolved my question immediately. :stuck_out_tongue:

I may come back later with other questions after I do my other readings. I tend to do a couple of passes through the chapters, if time permits, which it definitely does this week. I have been quite sick all week, so have had and will have plenty of free time until Monday comes and I’m crushed under the workload of having missed work for a week! Haha.

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Hi everyone! I’ll add some vocabulary to the spreadsheet too and I have a question for the very first page. Thank you in advance (◕‿◕)

p. 13

お前いつも守ってばっかだろ
All you do is defense.

I can get the meaning from the verb 守る (to protect), but what I’m wondering about is ばっか. Perhaps, is it a colloquial version of ばかり? If so, does it reinforce the いつも, like "all you do is only defense?

Edit: more questions after my second and third read I guess, even if I was able to get everything but not in too much detail.

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Pg. 13

It is another form of ばかり, yes. Sometimes, you’ll see it as ばっかり, also.

I took いつも to mean all the time, while the ばっか took the only meaning. So I interpreted it as,

“You’re only defending/on the defense all the time.”

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ありがとう @MrGeneric ٩(◕‿◕。)۶

p. 19

まだくるのか!? ムリムリもうムリムリだって
Is he coming again?! - like, is he coming back again with the same question?, but then there’s the second part which I cannot understand better than “it’s impossible”.

First ムリムリ: I was able to find a translation here and I think it works within this context, but why repeating it two times + だって? Send help, please (⇀‸↼‶)

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Pg. 19

I interpreted that sentence as,

“He’s still coming? I can’t, I can’t, jeez, I can’t, I can’t!”

She is panicking because he’s still pressing the issue.

ムリ does mean “It’s impossible,” but it is often used in contexts that in English, we would say, “I can’t do that,” or “I can’t.”

また is “again.” まだ is “still.” I get them mixed all the time without the kanji (又 for again. 未だ for still, if it helps you at all). :stuck_out_tongue:

I think the もう is the one that means “jeez,” or “ugh,” basically, though it could also just be for emphasis.

I think, but am not positive, that the だって is supposed to be for emphasis.

Here is the Maggie-sensei page on だって. The meaning I mention are the 4th and 5th examples. It could also be a quoting particle, taking the meaning of “I said,” but either way the point for it is ultimately emphasis.

Edit: Actually adding the link, because I’m dumb.

How to use だって ( = datte) – Maggie Sensei

Here’s an example from another anime of ムリ being used in almost the exact same way (minus the だって and もう

(802) Yotsuba said “muri muri muri” - YouTube

Side-note: I would love to learn how one embeds videos instead of linking to them, if anybody knows.

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Pg. 19

This is my first ever manga, but since Ayumu was the last to speak and the panel is a closeup of his face, I took it to be Ayumu’s thoughts, not Urushi’s. I’m really fuzzy on the Japanese, but at the end of the previous page he wasn’t backing down on saying she’s cute. And now he’s thinking am I still coming/going on about this/attacking? I can’t I can’t… She’s in suspense and freaking out…and then he gives up/chickens out. That’s my novice interpretation.

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Pg. 19

I could also see that interpretation. This manga could definitely serve to be clearer about who’s thoughts exactly we are looking at, at any given point. The only reason I leaned in the direction of it being Urushi’s thoughts, as opposed to Ayumu’s was that it feels like an odd tone shift for him (even if it’s internal vs. external) So far, even in his internal thoughts, he is relatively collected, whereas Urushi is definitely not, and this thought bubble conveys more panic than I would expect him to have. Heh. Either interpretation would fit neatly into the scene, which doesn’t help matters, either.

I do have to say that this manga has a lot more ambiguity to it than Takagi-san did. :stuck_out_tongue:

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does the テレ on page 17 come from 照れる?

edit: or is it page 15 lol, i see no page numbers, im going off of file numbers

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I believe it is, yes.

Edit: It’s Pg. 15 by count. It is definitely lacking in page numbers.

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This is very common in japanese manga, and I don’t think it’s as ambiguous at it may seem in the first place, it’s just a matter of getting used to it. The usual clues to figure this out are:

Context. It was already mentioned, but it doesn’t make sense for this to be Ayumu’s thoughts, because there’s no reason for him to be in a panic. It’s clearly Urushi who is in a panic.

Directionality indicators. The dialog says まだくるのか. This means something is happening in the direction of whoever is thinking in that panel. Clearly Urushi is the one in the receiving end of the current “attack”.

Speech style. It’s hard to believe Ayumu would use something like ムリムリ, even in his thoughts or in spoken dialogue.

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That all makes sense. Thank you. I think it’s going to be a case, as you say, of getting used to it. I am glad that my initial instinct of Urushi being the one having the thought seems to be correct.

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One quick reflection on last week – whether I got anything else out of it or not, I remember こと super well. One of those things that sticks with you for some reason. I’ve been seeing it elsewhere in different contexts, meaning different things… but I have a nebulous grasp on this other use, so that’s cool.

Along the same lines, I recently learned まもり/まもる from random exposure, and I think after this, I’m unlikely to ever forget it.

Overall I’m following enough in that the general topics and stuff are clear (with some slow work and help, of course). One thing is I think I’m getting more used to accepting I can’t tell what some things say, and also picking out where words are transforming or getting added on to to look up grammar when I want. Often that doesn’t return helpful/relevant info, but still, identifying what the problem is is in itself a skill. And it’s not as tiring to read, this time…granted, I’m mostly only getting the very surface gist of stuff. The number of totally understood sentences remains close to zero. Progress in whatever form, I think.

I just want to ask a very general question. I’m very early in Genki 2. When it comes to Japanese, I am baby. That said, I’ve been wondering – the grammar in this is, the majority of the time, stuff I really don’t know what to make of. And there are exponentially more grammar points that I don’t know than that I do, so that’s no surprise. But, if this question makes sense, would you say this has more complicated grammar than your average beginner would know, or is it very frequently bending the rules? Stylistically, writing a cute little manga, it wouldn’t surprise me to see language played with loosely. And I mean, language is an ever-changing thing so in some ways perhaps advanced grammar and casual rule breaking aren’t meaningfully distinct, but you get me, right? Sometimes I wonder if there are things happening that I’d be able to recognize if they weren’t shortening or otherwise altering it. Which, on that subject, I DID catch a なきゃ I happened to learn about elsewhere, where Genki only gave me long “proper” forms.


Now for what’s most important. Even though I understand almost nothing of what she says, Urushi is so cute and I want only good things for her.

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A lot of what we are running into is going to seem unfamiliar primarily because, some stylistic choices aside, we are seeing a lot of informal/colloquial language, which if you learned from a textbook, you don’t see as much of.

I have only really gotten through parts of Genki I before I couldn’t keep to the textbook anymore and set off on my own to learn grammar (primarily from Japanese Ammo with Misa’s videos), because the textbook format felt like absolutely nothing was sticking for me. As a result, I don’t know exactly how extensive the textbooks are in covering casual Japanese, but from what I saw, they were teaching ます and full forms of speech, as opposed to any contractions/slang/colloquial speaking.

I don’t know that it’s necessarily more difficult grammar than a beginner would know, since often it’s just a casual form of something that you have likely already been taught. なきゃ is one such example, but there are plenty of others (って in place of は, という, etc., etc.) that you will see where if you look up the grammar point (generally I just pluck what I think is the point, and just put “grammar” right after it in the search bar, and I can usually find what I’m searching for), you find that, oh, you have learned this grammar – just in it’s more formal form. That’s not always the case, but I find it has been fairly often for me.

tl;dr: I don’t think it’s necessarily a matter of more complicated grammar than your average beginner would know (though certainly, we will run into some higher-level grammar on occasion), it primarily depends on where the person has learned Japanese from so far, and whether their experience has been in a more formal setting (and thus more formal language), or if it’s been through exposure to native material (where you will primarily see this type of colloquial language).


And yes, Urushi is precious and must be protected at all costs.

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Yeah, Genki dips into short forms in the most general basic ways it has to, but outside of some quick footnotes and other asides, it hasn’t done much to point out other ways things can be said. I had no idea about って in that usage and I think that’s a huge source of confusion, so thanks!

That’s good information, thanks a lot for your input. Helps me to know where I need to focus to figure this out better. I’ve got a few qualms with Genki, but I find that the workbook stuff and other exercises are helping it stick with me enough, and I add in a video series where someone explains Genki lessons so I can get a second explanation. That’s how I caught なきゃ; he talked about all the other, simpler forms. I’ve seen a few of the opening Cure Dolly videos and I’m thinking that’s going to be a good way for me to go because it’s so different from the textbook way, to try to get a more complete understanding from two angles. But there are only so many hours in the day so I’m not doing it right now, think I’m gonna finish Genki then start casually going through her series when I finish Genki 2 and try to transition to mostly reading/listening if I can manage it (or maybe check out Japanese Ammo sometime, I’m open to shopping around).

As for formal settings vs exposure, I’m doing my best to interact with the language outside textbooks and WK too, but truly native sources have almost always felt like a step too far, up to now. So I spend my time in graded readers and simpler comprehensible input type videos specifically for learners, which I have no real issues with, but those are written/spoken much closer to the formal language I’m used to, so they’re no help with this particular issue.

If any other things that are relatively simple pop up, but are distinct from the way formal Japanese would be taught come to mind for anyone, please do share! Would help me a lot <3

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My (very short) take on this

Imagine you’re learning English, and your text book teaches you this sentence:

“Sure enough, I could not find my way without a map.”

Feeling good about this, you decide to try watching an English-language TV show about people discovering the need for maps. And as luck would have it, one long-faced character says:

“Shore ‘nough, I couldn find m’ way withoudamap.”

Even though it’s coincidentally exactly what you just learned in the English-teaching textbook, you’d be completely unprepared to have any idea that the spoken dialogue was the same thing.

Although that’s not quite the same as reading a Japanese manga at the first chapters of Genki 2, the general idea is the same: a textbook (especially very early material) gives you very sterilized material in a very sterilized environment.

That’s before mentioning that even the simplest of manga will include a lot of grammar that Genki never introduces.

Of course, if someone wanted to learn grammar specifically for reading manga, there’s a different book for that =D

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Yep, that’s exactly the kind of distinction I was looking for. I suppose the answer is to just read more, but the first step to starting to figure out the connections is… hard to figure out without directly being taught the common differences. We’ll see I suppose. Manga is fun, but it’s not an especially main reason I want to learn the language – I actually rarely read it (back in English) before now! Looking, as my longest term goal, to have the widest and deepest understanding of all parts of the language that I can. Then again, if this continues to give me trouble into the future, I just might take a look at that book if nothing else is helping me get it. Thanks, as always.

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Hi all :blush: I need some help… im quite new here and feeling shy to post and sound silly but here we go

Ive done two passes of this weeks chapter… and I am struggling to understand what Ayamu and Urushi mean…

p. 15

Ayumu is asking her what does she mean by saying she is more on the aggressive side as opposed to Ayumu who prefers to defend (Am I right?)
What does he then mean when he says たとえばどういうところですか

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One of the more difficult aspects of learning a foreign language is when you encounter a word for a concept that doesn’t map clearly to something in your native language. One example is こと from chapter one, which shows up more in chapter two, giving a wider scope to its uses.

Another such word appears on the first place of chapter two: わけ.

Defining わけ

Jisho tells us that わけ means:

conclusion from reasoning, judgement or calculation based on something read or heard; reason; cause; meaning; circumstances; situation​

On its own, わけ is really generic and vague, to the point of having no substantial meaning. It needs to be modified to tell what kind of conclusion it is.

This is actually a really bad “first exposure to わけ” sentence because it involves a shogi configuration of pieces, and because it’s a negative (ない). These complicate the sentence to the point that I would say, if don’t know わけ yet, don’t worry too much about trying to understand it here. You’ll see it plenty more in time, and you’ll have many opportunities to get to know it better.

That said, it doesn’t hurt to go over the basics, if you don’t mind covering the shogi portion first.

Shogi Terminology

Note: I’m looking up shogi terms as I go.

In the context of playing shogi, the verb ()む (“to assemble”) refers to arranging pieces.

One arrangement is 穴熊(あなぐま), a formation that places the king piece at the corner of the board, and surrounds it with specific other pieces. This is the strategy Tanaki is using, with his king at the bottom-right corner of the board, and various other pieces surrounding it.

Modifying わけ

Before delving into what わけ means, let’s first look at the clause that modifies it:

穴熊(あなぐま)なんて()ませる」

“[Subject] makes something like the anaguma arrangement.”

For what reason would someone use this arrangement in shogi? There are many reasons to use it (or not to use it). The end result of that reasoning is to use the arrangement (or not). That conclusion that one has reasoned their way to is represented by the word 「わけ」.

No Good Reason

But what if there is no reason to reach the conclusion to use the anaguma arrangement?

This is what Urushi is saying here: “There’s no (reasoning that reaches the conclusion) to make an arrangement into something like the anaguma.”

For this, ない is added onto わけ. It essentially changes the meaning of わけ from “reasoning has lead to this conclusion” to “there is no reasoning that can lead to this conclusion”.

Final Thoughts

I’m not yet good at explaining わけ, but hopefully this will have been a useful introduction. If this is your first time seeing わけ, don’t worry too much about it yet. But if you’d like to learn more, I highly recommend Cure Dolly’s video, Japanese “underlying logic”: わけ、そういうわけ、わけが分からない、わけない | Lesson 68.

 

Over on page 15…

In shogi, Ayumu tends to play defensively. For example, in this chapter, he’s setting up a well-known defense formation to protect his king, instead than going after Urushi’s pieces.

But outside of shogi, rather than taking the defense, Ayumu takes the offense in making complimentary remarks of Urushi, forcing her to often be on the defense (as we saw in chapter one). This is the kind of behavior Urushi is alluding to as Ayumu taking the offense.

For his line on page 15, when he says 「たとえばどういうところですか」:

The word ところ means “place”, but it can also mean an “aspect”. When he says “For example, what ところ are you talking about?” he’s saying, “What aspect are you talking about that I take the offense?” Urushi’s inner response, 「そういうところだよ」, is saying, “That’s the ところ (aspect) I’m talking about!”

Let me know if there are aspects that are still unclear!

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another question, page 17:

やっぱ なし!! is that 無し? what does she mean here? as expected, unacceptable? nonetheless or as before unacceptable? やっぱ seems to have a lot of translations, I assume it’s her somehow saying that she just can’t bring herself to say what she was thinking on the page before, just don’t get exactly what this exclamation means.

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