もてかたに・はたちからと・までがあり
The way to be / popular changes / at age twenty
Notes:
As always, @Myria ’s “stab at it” hit the bullseye. 花丸! (I changed the wording to get to a 4-5-4 syllable count.)
@Myria s explanation is worth repeating:
モテ方に二十歳から(のモテ方)と(二十歳)まで(のモテ方)がある.
This is about the best way to explain a senryu. The challenge of reading a senryu is figuring out the unstated stuff. Without looking for it, and by trying to literally translate the senryu as it is, I missed the key point that と is the “and” connector of から and まで.
The comment on transition from out of school is also relevant and useful in providing the cultural context for the 20 year age boundary.
@macha1313 was headed in the right direction, until I manage to derail her. So sorry! I need to curtail my tongue as it seems to love the taste of humble pie.
Current senryu challenge
Volume: Heartfelt
友の数あの世の方が多くなり
Hints:
Had to look up あの世 as I haven’t encountered it before.
Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.
Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.
Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源由来辞典 is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.
Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.
Will give this senryu until tomorrow before closing it out. In the meantime, here’s my submission:
友の数あの世の方が多くなり
とものかず・あのよのほうが・おおくなり
The count of one’s
friends increases in
the afterlife
A 4-5-4
Comment: Does it mean the inhabitants of the next world are more friendly? Or, is it that those who are still alive, think fondly of the absentee, thereby increasing the latter’s number of friends in this world? Both?
Interpretation: This is a ‘being old’ complaint – all the speaker’s friends seem to be gradually dying, so it’s getting to the point where more of them are in the next world than this one.
more of my friends / are in the next world / than this one now
I did look up a few translations, since I was having trouble making these phrases into a coherent thought. I was able to identify “number of friends” “the afterlife” + の方, all before が, and “many/mostly become” assuming that なり is a version of なる. One of the definitions of 方 was that it is a suffix that is an honorific, which I think is what’s happening here? That’s my guess from how it’s translated via Google/deepL. Otherwise I was trying to make the phrase “the way of the afterlife” and that didn’t seem to fit.
The number of friends (in?) the afterlife becomes many.
As for interpretation, there are a couple ways I think this could go. My first impression was a cynical one, that after you die everyone acts like they were your friend (even if they clearly were not) - maybe for inheritance reasons, maybe just because some people won’t “speak ill of the dead” even if you weren’t friendly in life. But since this is under “heartfelt,” I’m guessing it’s not that.
Instead, maybe it’s the idea that when you go to the afterlife, you get to be with all the friends and loved ones that went before you, so you have more friends with you now than you did while you were alive - especially if you reached a fairly old age. I have a pretty vivid memory of Christmas visiting my grandmother, and she kept getting Christmas cards back from her far-away friends (actually from their children) letting her know that they’d passed on during the last year. It was a very emotional holiday season. I think this poem might have been a nice sentiment for her then.
In addition to @pm215 's grammar point, note that honorific usage of 方 (as a suffix) takes the -かた、-がた reading. In this senryu, it appears after the particle の, with the ほう reading.
とものかず・あのよのほうが・おおくなり
more of my friends / are in the next world / than this one now
Notes:
@pm215 ’s 4-5-4 translation and commentary (below) explain it very well.
This is a ‘being old’ complaint – all the speaker’s friends seem to be gradually dying, so it’s getting to the point where more of them are in the next world than this one.
Current senryu challenge
Volume: Husbands
結婚前キミと来たねが墓穴堀り
This one could be a bit challenging, particularly the ねが bit…
Hints:
Could ねが have something to do with 願う? Or, (as DeepL says) is it an Okinawan funerary custom? Or, are they two words: 来たね + が (if so, first time I’m encountering it)?
NOTE: Deadline for submissions for this senryu is 48 hours, since it seems challenging.
Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.
Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.
Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源由来辞典 is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.
Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.
Hi! I’ve never tried this before, just discovered this thread. I’m not one for research, and it’s likely I’ll be way off the mark, but here’s my try:
けっこんまえきみときたねがぼげつほり
Before we married, you approached me, right? Dug your own grave.
I’m assuming the ね is used as in “right?” And the が is to joint the two sentences. So, if I’m reading this right, this person sounds like a jerk. “You approached me first, so it’s your fault if you’re unhappy.” It’s not clear to me if the husband or wife is speaking. Does the category “husbands” imply the husband is the speaker?
Translation Attempt
Some info from the Japanese version is not included and it’s in an odd 6-4-4 format, but here it is:
„Remember our date here?“
I think I just
Dug my own grave
Interpretation:
Husband (the author) is at some special place/restaurant with his wife, exclaims: „Remember back then when we came here before we were married?“, immediately realizes that it was in fact another woman he took to this place, not his wife. But it’s too late and he has already dug his own grave that’s the extent of my interpretation at least.
But maybe there‘s something more to it?
Grammar hints:
キミと together with you
来たねが I understand this as
「結婚前、キミと来たね」が墓穴掘り
The が declares the quoted text that comes before as one big noun. In English: „The 「キミと来たね」ended up being my demise“, like that.
I‘m not sure if the 結婚前 is part of the quote, but I think it is? Otherwise he wouldn’t be married if he constantly mixed up partners? I think it makes more sense for the senryuu to be about something that’s exclaimed right now, rather than looking back on his past faux pas.
Before we married
We came here together
and both dug our graves
Its a 5-6-5 and I’m not sure if it gets the complete nuance down, BUT it’s the most direct translation I could do.
I’m thinking that in this place they’re at now, they had a date, and that’s when they fell in love or had decided to get married. Maybe it’s where they proposed? That’s the vibe I get, but it’s hard to express that in a poem and still have the word 結婚前 properly represented directly.
The feeling that comes before marriage digs your own grave.
That was my first attempt, anyway. But now I’ve added キミと to my anki deck, since it seems pretty useful to know, and the dictionaries I have installed for Yomichan don’t seem to recognize it.
Welcome to the Daily Senryu Challenge @weaverZ ! Glad you found us. And thanks for making a contribution right away - that is the best way to enter the stream of senryu. Look forward to your continued participation.
Not doing much research is fine, particularly since you’ve explained the logic behind the translation. Besides, senryu are so tightly packed in their 5-7-5 construct - they often leave out particles and phrases and such - that “research” is not of much help. I think experience with the language as it is practiced by the Japanese and an understanding of their culture is a better tool. We have varying degrees of that with the participants in this thread. Which makes for interesting discussion. Even mistakes clarify our individual as well as collective understanding of grammar, the implied (but unstated) stuff - the “reading between the lines” that Japanese are famous for, and the customs and habits behind the statements.
As for your questions:
This is correct, as borne out in the other translations as well.
That’s what I’ve seen in the senryu we have dealt with so far. But, regardless of who the speaker is, the POV is that of the husband.
結婚前キミと来たね would translate literally as “Before marriage, with you (I) came here, didn’t I?” Or, the corresponding statement in English would be, “Before we married, we came here, remember?”
It’s not clear who is doing the 墓穴掘り - it could be the husband, it could be both of them, or (as in your translation) it could be the wife. But, the が connects it to what was said before, and therefor to the person who said it. So, in this case, it is the husband who is digging himself into a hole.
At least that’s how I see it. Usual caveats about how I’ve been wrong before, etc.
Thanks again for your entry and the effort you put into it.
I’ve noticed such odd splits in previous senryu as well. I’m not sure if it is because 結婚前 can be treated as two words 結婚 + 前, as in 結婚の前。
Your grammar notes and reading of the first part with quotes makes a lot of sense. It cleared my confusion with the ねが in 来たねが.
LOL! True.
One of my guesses was that he’s saying he said this to her before the marriage. Ergo, he 墓穴掘り.
結婚前「キミと(ここへ)来たね」(と言ったの)が墓穴掘り
However, since this is under the “Husbands” category, I abandoned this “before marriage grave digger” scenario.
Given the number of submissions so far, I will go ahead and close out this senryu tomorrow. But, before then I will clear this with an expert, just to be sure that we’re not missing anything else.
This translation makes sense as well and it was what I first thought of. Then I was beset with doubts.
The が in the 来たねが has to be making what precedes it the subject of the verb (in this case 墓穴堀り). Or it has to be the “but” が connector, which doesn’t work when it is preceded by 来たね, which is a conversational ending as opposed to describing something and then putting a “but” at the end. Hence my confusion with ねが.
I think that it might be a 切り言葉 which is used in regular haiku as well just to fit a mora count.
Or, it can be a poetic “but” since the previous “we came here together before we married right? But we ended up digging our graves on that day” just to contrast the happy memory alongside something kind of dark, or foreboding.
The dictionary of basic japanese grammar says “が is much weaker than “but” in that it is sometimes used simply to combine two sentences for stylistic reasons even if those two sentences do not represent contrastive ideas”
Hello, all! Looks like I’ve missed some fun ones. Just popping in to say “hi”. I fly back on Saturday.
As is so often the case, it looks like @Myria has good insight for this one. Such an interesting grammatical composition! The ね followed by が was really tricky. I think that if this one is read aloud by a native, there is probably a significant pause between the two.
I think it is too. It may add context for why he just dug his own grave by saying it aloud. Maybe he’s revealed that they were seeing each other before people realized, or maybe it was a favorite make-out spot!
I think the translation makes logical sense (as I said, that’s also my first interpretation) as a lament about the marriage, compared to an “Oops. But, I have dug myself into a hole.”
As for が being a 切り言葉, I did a quick search and found that there are 18 切り言葉 that are used in haiku, but が is not one of them. (In fact, I haven’t seen most of those in the list before in the haikus I’ve run into.)
True. I shouldn’t have called it the “but” connector, and just said the “が particle/connector.” Still, the connector refers to a quoted statement. Hence I see it is a が connecting that quoted sentence to the second part and therefore, IMHO, the subject of the statement has to be the same on both sides of the が.
All that said, I am nowhere qualified enough to be the arbiter of how to interpret senryu. To settle questions like the ones above, I asked an expert - my 日本語先生 - for her take on this 川柳. I will include it in the final summary later today.
Note that the past tense of 来る (くる) are 来ました & 来た and are pronounced きました and きた respectively.
キミと is 君と, meaning “with you,” written in kana. Sometimes 君 is written in katakana, and I have no clue why they do it and whether it has any significance.
(Not a smoker in reality)
that’s the extent of my interpretation at least.
Look forward to your continued participation.
