ルリドラゴン ・ Ruri Dragon 🐲 (Absolute Beginner Book Club)

Absolutely feel free to add anything missing that you find to be missing. There are some words that fell through the cracks (one example would be 「わたし」 written without kanji). I figure starting with a nearly-complete list is easy enough to add a few words here and there.

Three purposes:

  1. To know the best words to learn for a volume. For example, if you don’t know ()く, it might be a good one to look up before reading, so you’ll know it when you see it.

The idea here is that by looking up a word before you encounter it, your brain will be predisposed to recognize that word when you encounter it.

But this doesn’t work if you look up every word before reading, because you won’t remember them all. Thus, prioritization based on frequency.

  1. To know the worst words to learn in a volume. For example, 覚悟(かくご) appears only one time in the whole volume.

If there are 800 words you don’t know yet in the material you’re about to start reading, you want to learn the ones that show up the most because you’ll be seeing those the most.

This can be done by pre-learning the most frequently used words before you start reading.

Or, it may be creating flash cards as you read, but only picking the highest-frequency words to create cards for.

Another option is to ignore frequency lists altogether and just trust you’ll learn the most common words naturally as you go. (Pre-learning helps with this, but isn’t necessary.) The younger you are, the better this method works.

There’s no right method and wrong method here, just different ways one may try to optimize their learning.

  1. Tracking how many words one knows in a manga (or book, or anime, etc).

Using ルリドラゴン as an example, while it has around 800 unique words, since many words are used multiple times it actually has about 2,800 words total (give or take a hundred). Based on my frequency tracking, the unique words I know account for nearly 2,300 of these words, meaning I know roughly 82% of the words in the volume.

When you are first starting out reading, this number doesn’t mean much because everything you try to read you’ll probably not know enough words for. And grammar will be more important to focus on.

But later on, if you start reading lots, it can be useful to know whether the manga (or book or otherwise) you want to read is one where you know 90% of the words or 60% of the words.

Somewhat.

With these caveats:

  1. It requires buying a digital copy that you can remove DRM protection from, for your own personal use.

  2. It requires having a PC or laptop where you can install and run Mokuro.

  3. The automated process of reading an image and extracting text from it (optical character recognition, or OCR) is not perfect, especially if the digital manga has small resolution pages or sections with small print.

  4. Individual lines on a page may be out of order. (I do have a script to work around this, but it can take upwards of 20 minutes of manual labor moving a mouse per volume.)

That results in output like this (this example being from a different manga).

  1. Sharing the output with others is legally murky territory.

When do we get the sequel manga, ルリキリン?

Absolutely.

There is also a secret here for early readers.

A manga or book that may be boring for you in your native language may actually be interesting to read in Japanese.

The reason is that simply being able to understand something in Japanese for the first time makes the experience more exciting. There are probably dopamine hits all over the place as you’re slowly recognizing words and grammar and eventually understanding a whole sentence without looking anything up.

Of course, there are limits. Some people love graded readers and others find them boring.

This is why I like using frequency lists to track what percentage of total words in a manga I know. It gamifies the vocabulary acquisition process.

As you’ve realized, the only wrong method is the one where you want to learn but are not learning.

In some respects, you’re further along in 13 months than I was in 20 years of off-and-on learning (including two years of Japanese class in high school).

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^This is SO important indeed! I remember bawling harder at some of the graded readers than I’ve ever had for another book in my native language or English (though admittedly it also were those about Hachiko and the Elephant one whose name escapes me, and I am generally bad with animal tragedies)

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Sacchan can relate.

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Reminder to self: Keep @anon3564849 away from ごんぎつね (おはなし名作絵本 1) | L23.

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That reminds me, I've had this adaptation since the late 1990s that I never read.


Maybe I should.

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It also depends on how much time you have :slight_smile: if I had the whole day everyday to study Japanese, I think I wouldn’t mind, but I’m at a point in my life where I choose to only use 15min to one hour a day on Japanese, so in my case doesn’t really make sense to use that time struggling to translate 3 sentences, I’d rather get more solid foundations in grammar and kanji

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could maybe speed that up by assigning numbers or letters to boxes, so everything can be controlled from the keyboard

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I may just have to look into this now… I’m fairly decent at 10-key.

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I’m truly sorry :joy: Sending you down a rabbit hole like that

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Is that Mitsuboshi Colors? Never got around to reading it, but it looks adorable as hell

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It is!

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Ah, I remember when Mitsuboshi Colors book club was starting, it looked cute but difficult for me back then. I also wasn’t interested in book clubs, never thought I’d be joining one haha

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I already did week 1s reading and felt pretty good about it!!! Once there is a grammar sheet up I’m gonna go over it again referencing the grammar. Book is cute so far :grinning:

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I don’t think there will be. That was an experiment for my book clubs and it didn’t go too smoothly.

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Yeah, I didn’t even think of adding a grammar sheet since in my head that was just a thing that was made for the previous 2 clubs to make the higher difficulty work.

@krispekremy, did you see the sheets in one of these clubs and thought they were helpful?

@Gorbit99, what do you think went wrong? Could it be worth trying it again for this club?

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Week 1

Week 2

If you want to put the effort in, I have a few suggestions.

  1. The grammar doesn’t need a weekly breakdown, it’s much much easier to have a single dump for the entire thing. There won’t be so many that you won’t be able to look through it.
  2. It really doesn’t need page numbers either, grammar just appears so freaking much, that a reader might not even see the grammar point for the first time they stumble on it, but eventually they will and then they’ll be confused that it’s not included in that page’s group.

The big issue was the surprising amount of effort that needed to be put into it. You might think “oh, it’s just a couple dozen grammar points, how bad could it be”, which is true, for cells at work week 1 it was only like 30 grammar points. But for each grammar-like structure, you need to figure out, if it’s actually a grammar point, or just vocab, then find a decent enough grammar explanation (which is hard, since for example bunpro enjoys breaking up certain grammar points into multiple explanations), and after that, type out an example sentence for it, if you don’t have copyable text (which I didn’t).

It was a decently useful resource, I got quite a few messages about it actually helping, it’s just a ton of work. Especially if you consider the fact, that vocab is much easier to look up, if you don’t know it than grammar.

An idea I had was that the example sentences could be thrown out in favour of generic ones. And then there could be a large combined sheet made with rows already filled out, so if a book club needs an explanation, they just yank it and drop it into that week’s grammar sheet. This could even be automated somewhat with a script (gotta be careful, otherwise someone might get ideas :eyes:).

Tl;dr: great idea, terrible terrible execution. If there was a way to make the process less painful, I would recommend it.

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Find me a Japanese grammar parser application and…

(I have yet to find one and don’t have the knowledge/skill to try and build my own. If I did, it would be open source though!)

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Forgive me if this is a rudimentary/naive suggestion, but something as simple as encouraging users to search for ‘grammar’ or ‘grammar explanation’ or ‘grammar means’ in the topic will help people a lot. It isn’t the same procedure as the spreadsheet, I know, but it is an important function that a lot of new users won’t be aware of.

I mainly meant the insertion part, not the writing part.
Also, kinda like Ichiran? The installation, last I tried is a pain in the a**, but it’s what ichi.moe is using for its breakdowns and those are usually sort of kinda decent sometimes? (Except for slang, uncommon speech patterns, multiple possible breakdowns and names, things, which of course never appear in a manga, that would be silly).

This serves a sort of a different purpose. Kinda like the vocab sheet. If you see a sentence, you understand most of it, but there’s that pesky grammar pattern you can’t put your finger on, you can of course look it up, but that’s harder than doing it for vocab. So instead you can try matching the pattern you see onto one of the ones appearing in the list. You then immediately get an example sentence to see it in effect and a professional grade grammar explanation if you want to know more about it.
Asking questions in the thread is much more asynchronous, you ask a question, and someone answers in 10 to 15 minutes, couple hours if you are unlucky. This optimizes for the common case, where you only need a couple of grammar points explained, and leaves the thread for more complex cases, like full on sentence breakdown and talking about the cutest dragon girl ever.

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Coincidentally, I almost mentioned in my prior reply that I haven’t been successful in installing this.

But I think it might take more than this for grammar.

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