ホリミヤ ・ Horimiya 🎀 👓 Week 3 Discussion Thread (Absolute Beginner Book Club)

Japanese Language Book Clubs
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Welcome to Week 3 of the Horimiya book club!

We are reading as part of the Absolute Beginner Book Club!

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Week 3 September 9 2023
Pages 17 - 21 (15 - 19 for physical copies)
Chapter 1
Last Week Week 2
Next week Week 4
Home Thread ホリミヤ・Horimiya
The final panel for this week

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Vocabulary

ホリミヤ Volume 1 Vocabulary List - Google Sheets

Please read the guidelines on the first page before adding any words.

Please note that this was auto-generated and might need some additional editing, but it should serve as a solid starting point. If you have any questions/doubts, please post them in this thread!

Discussion Guidelines

Spoiler Courtesy

Please follow these rules to avoid inadvertent ネタバレ. If you’re unsure whether something should have a spoiler tag, err on the side of using one.

  1. Any potential spoiler for the current week’s reading need only be covered by a spoiler tag. Predictions and conjecture made by somebody who has not read ahead still falls into this category.
  2. Any potential spoilers for external sources need to be covered by a spoiler tag and include a label (outside of the spoiler tag) of what might be spoiled. These include but are not limited to: other book club picks, other books, games, movies, anime, etc. I recommend also tagging the severity of the spoiler (for example, I may still look at minor spoilers for something that I don’t intend to read soon).
  3. Any information from later in the book than the current week’s reading (including trigger warnings that haven’t yet manifested) needs to be hidden by spoiler tags and labeled as coming from later sections.
Instructions for Spoiler Tags

Click the cog above the text box and use either the “Hide Details” or “Blur Spoiler” options. The text which says “This text will be hidden” should be replaced with what you are wishing to write. In the case of “Hide Details”, the section in the brackets that is labelled “Summary” can be replaced with whatever you like also (i.e, [details=”Chapter 1, Pg. 1”]).

Hide Details results in the dropdown box like below:

Example

This is an example of the “Hide Details” option.

The “Blur Spoiler” option will simply blur the text it surrounds.

This is an example of the “Blur Spoiler” option.

Posting Advice

  • When asking for help, please mention the page number, and check before posting that your question hasn’t already been asked. As the threads get longer, it becomes more convenient to use the Search function, which is located in the upper right corner of the forum. It is the magnifying glass which is near your profile picture! The best way to search is usually to type part of the sentence you are confused about, and select “in this topic”. This will show you all posts within the current thread which has that string of text.

  • Be sure to join the conversation! It’s fun, and it’s what keeps these book clubs lively! There’s no such thing as a stupid question! We are all learning here, and if the question has crossed your mind, there’s a very good chance it has crossed somebody else’s also! Asking and answering questions is a great learning opportunity for everyone involved, so never hesitate to do so!

Membership

Will you be reading with us this week?
  • I’m reading along
  • I’ve finished this part
  • I’m planning to catch up later
  • I’m reading this after the book club is already finished
0 voters

For our newer readers

How are you doing so far?
  • It’s going really well
  • It’s going well
  • I’m struggling, but I manage
  • I’m struggling so much I’m thinking of dropping the book
  • I’m no longer reading the book
  • I have read harder manga/books than tlhis one but I still need to click a poll option
0 voters

(This poll is anonymous)

Just remember that the club is always here! Even if you decide it’s too much right now, you can always come back later and review the threads/ask more questions if they weren’t answered! If there’s anything I can do as the organizer to make things easier for you guys, just let me know as well!

As a side-note: seeing how many voters selected, “It’s going well” or “I’m struggling, but I manage” feels really great! That means that we’ve hit a bit of a sweet spot in terms of the difficulty for everyone – just enough that it challenges you, but it remains attainable. As always, ask questions, discuss! It’s the best way to learn!

Don’t forget to set this thread to Watching if you want to receive notifications for discussion!

Handwritten text this week

Note: Physical book pages are listed in parentheses.

Pg. 17 (15)

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由紀にも貴子にも見られたことないのに…っ

Pg. 19 (17)

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あー よかったー これで創太も喜ぶわー

Pg. 21 (19)

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左右４つずつに口１つ

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I love the faces in this manga.

Hori 1
Hori 2
Hori 3

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My personal favorite expressions this week

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I feel like I struggled to get all of the grammar points this week, but with my knowledge of the vocabulary I managed to make it through.

New Vocab:

絵本 - Picture Book
避ける - To avoid
お互い様 - The feeling is mutual
照れる - To be shy
慣れる - To get used to
むずがゆい - Creepy
めだつ - To stand out

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Vocab

むずがゆい in this context is more like ‘uncomfortable’, iirc.

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I mean, I am getting the basic jest based on the vocab spreadsheet and pics but most of the grammar except for past tense is going right by me - I should have binged Genki 1 before starting - LOL - (really only on chapter 5) - honestly I think when this is all done I’m going to find the offiical english translation and be shocked but for the time being I’m getting barely something

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That’s how it starts out for sure!

My grammar knowledge when I joined the ABBC was a few Japanese Ammo with Misa videos and multiple failed attempts at trying to build a study habit with Genki. @ChristopherFritz can attest that I was asking questions constantly in the Takagi-san club. I was very much learning as I went!

But sticking with it, as long as you are mostly enjoying the content, really does help. By the end of that first volume, I really started to find my legs, and that’s all she wrote! :grin:

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Love how this changed from “2” to “multiple”.

What MrGeneric said is in fact the norm. Even if you binged genki through, it would be unlikely, that your nonexistent practical knowledge would help you with the sort of Japanese that’s in manga. But one or two books in, you’ll find, that it will be way easier to parse sentences.

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I realized I was underselling. :joy:

It was 2 recent attempts before the club, but several more before that. :joy:

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I believe that’s a shared experience :sweat_smile:

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one of the fundamentals of language learning to me is understanding that not knowing stuff isn’t failure, it’s just not knowing stuff

also you gotta be okay with making like a bajillion mistakes, a 5 year old native speaker has already made like ten thousand bamillion more mistakes than you in their language, you’ll be fine, just gotta get all those mistakes outta your system

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At this point, you should place importance on the following:

  1. Reading discussion on grammar.
  2. Asking about unknown grammar.
  3. Time allowing, supplement your grammar learning with outside resources.

By now, you’ve seen grammar discussion that has gone right over your head.

This is normal.

I’ve had plenty of grammar I couldn’t grasp when I first encountered it.

You don’t need to understand all the grammar yet.

Aim to get the gist of what is going on.

“What if I ask about grammar without realizing it was explained in a prior week’s thread?”

Not a problem.

If someone points this out and links to the prior question/answer, readers can view the same grammar used in two situations to understand it better.

You can use two methods when using supplemental resources for learning grammar.

The first method is to get an overview of common grammar.

This is best done with a resource that teaches grammar in a sequence, starting with common grammar, such as Genki (textbook), Tae Kim (website), or Cure Dolly (video).

The purpose of this is not to properly understand common grammar but to recognize it when you encounter it in reading the manga, making it easier to learn then.

The second method is to deeply dive into reading about grammar you encountered while reading the manga.

This is the method I used, and it often had me doing a web search for the text I was uncertain about with the word “grammar” in my search.

Here's an example.

      

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This method is a bit tricky if you don’t know whether the grammar is common or not. It’s best used when you’ve seen the same grammar repeated a few times.

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I feel this goes along with a systems versus goals reframe.

Goal-oriented frame:

I need to learn grammar to learn Japanese.

I am having difficulty learning some grammar.

I am failing at my goal of learning Japanese.

System-oriented reframe:

I need to learn more grammar constantly (daily, weekly).

If some grammar is too difficult to understand, I will focus on learning easier grammar or reinforcing my understanding of grammar I have already learned.

Over time, my understanding of native material, and my reading experience, will steadily improve.

For those who are focused on a vague, far-off future goal of learning Japanese, I highly recommend shifting your mindset to a system of forward-moving progress.

Not knowing stuff isn’t a failure to learn Japanese, it’s more to learn when you’re ready for it on the journey!

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I wanted to circle around to this point because it connects to one of the other fundamentals of learning, as I understand it.

One of the ways we retain information, generally (not just limited to language, but I will demonstrate it from that perspective), is to encounter it in multiple different contexts and to connect it to that floating bit of information. So for instance, 水 is not just = water, but also:

  • Every time you see the hirigana for みず (or the katakana for ミズ I guess?) (and connect it with 水）
  • Every time you hear the spoken words みず (and connect it with 水）
  • Every time you drink, feel, hear a splash of, etc (and connect it with 水）
  • Perhaps a situation where you were thirsty and you wanted to drink something but you didn’t know what and you were like, “えっと、飲みたいんですけど。。。” and someone was like ”何を飲みたい？" and you were like 水！！！
  • etc

There’s some brain chemistry and neural pathway stuff involved here, but generally: the more you are exposed to something with different experiences that can act as anchors or pathways into that knowledge, the more set and more pronounced that knowledge becomes, until you don’t have to think actively about it, it’s just - knowledge!

So anyway yeah don’t feel afraid to ask questions and build more connection points! It’s good for everyone, those who are explaining stuff included!

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This was the turning point for me years ago, especially with speaking. I realized that my “Oh my god, I’m so embarrassed I made a mistake in this new language I’m learning” was seriously, seriously stupid. When I thought about it from the reverse perspective, I realized no one cares if you make a mistake. No one thinks, “What a loser hahaha he made a mistake in the language he’s learning”.

Playing it safe and only using what you 100% know proves for slower learning, in my experience.

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I’m liking the story so far, I also noticed that the drawing style shifts quite a bit. I’m picking up the difference between various balloon types and fonts, so that helps in reading. Still, quite a few things that I couldn’t work out. But over half-way of this week’s reading.

p.17

今でも信じられないんだけど… それより何より

Not sure what the second part of this is supposed to mean. Something like “But above it all”, which is what both parts imply. The symmetry gave me the idea that it might be a sort of fixed expression?

スッピン見られた…っ
Is this to be taken literal? Or is “face without make-up” meant metaphorically here? The hand-written text expands that even her two closest friends have never seen it. Could still mean either…

p.19

いいわよ
変な気ィ
使わなくてもー

The meaning her seems to be "That’s OK. You don’t have to [do anything strange/go to the trouble/etc]. But what is the idea behind 変な気ィ exactly? And what is the ィ doing there?

堀さんが話しかけてきてくれたこと
昨日のこともあるし俺はてっきり
…てっきり
避けられるのかと

Just checking whether I have the right understanding for this. Hori-san just asked him what he was surprised about. He answers (very liberal translation) “that you came over to talk to me. Because of yesterday’s thing, I was sure I would be avoided.” Is that right?

Digging a bit deeper into the sentence-ending particles, it seems this isn’t quite a complete sentence. と is probably a quotation marker (I was thinking that …). The かと makes it an implied question (I was wondering whether you would surely avoid me)?

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p17

It does roughly have the meaning of “But more importantly than that”. Though I can’t find it in any jp-en dictionaries.

I think it’s ltieral, “He saw my face without makeup”, or more naturally “He saw me without makeup”. I guess she washed it off.

p19

I have the same understanding as you do, or maybe it could be understood as “You don’t need to go so far”. The イ might just be her feeling self concious or something, not sure about that.

That’s about right.

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that last bit

That’s right. Probably a か と[思う]

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As someone who completed GENKI a few years ago, I’ll say that it would not have helped. I learned much more practical usage from Cure Dolly on YouTube and “Japanese the manga way” book.

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page 17

“But more importantly than that, more importantly than ANYTHING… HE SAW MY FACE WITHOUT MAKEUP :tired_face:”

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