Teasing Master Takagi-san 😝 ・ Volume 1, chapter 5

[chrisosaurus]

Sorry for the late reply, I read your reply on the first day and actioned the help, but I’ve been moving house so I kept running out of time to actually finish write this reply (it was written piecemeal over multiple days).

Thanks again for the thorough replies and explanation.

@ChristopherFritz

し is used after giving a reason

ohhh, ohhhhhhh!

I (in theory) had learned that about し but only ever seen it as the final particle, whereas here it was followed by オレ so my brain drew a complete blank.

@ChristopherFritz

This looks to be a spot where a sentence doesn’t end in a period

So with that missing period this would be 勝負？別にいいよ。負けないしオレ。 ?

@ChristopherFritz

you can take 別(べつ)にいい to mean “that’s fine” or “I’m okay with that” or “whatever”

That makes sense, the article also somehow clicked for me (on my third attempt at reading it)
I think I was stuck on thinking of 別に too literally and for some reason the expression/phrase forms weren’t clicking, hopefully next time this happens I’ll think back to this.

@ChristopherFritz

Because Takagi would be the one asking, Nishikata is saying he will listen.

This may sound silly, but when you say this it makes so much sense, but when I tried going through a similar process at first I got stuck.

I think I was interpreting it as either
Nishikata will listen for Takagi - nonsense
Nishikata will ask for Takagi - nonsense
From context I then guessed “I’ll listen to you (for you / as a favour)” but I felt I was just guessing rather than actually understanding how I got there.

Now it seems somewhat obvious to me
Nishikata will listen to Takagi (as a favour to/for Takagi)

Secondly, I also found the dual verbs kind of strange wrt to subject/actor/do-er.

なんでも言うコト
Whatever (someone) says - Takagi is the one 言う-ing
聞いてあげる
Nishikata is the one listening to Takagi - Nishikata is the one 聞く-ing (due to 上げる)

I don’t think I’d seen a sentence with this kind of verb shape before, without context this would have totally confused me.

In English we would make this explicit nouns as “I will listen to whatever you say”, so I think it is just a matter of me being unfamiliar with the Japanese equivalent.

@ChristopherFritz

The くれる here is like あげる, but in the other direction.

That’s about as far as I got.
So we have 言う → te form + くれる, which gave me:
“(someone) will say something/speak for/to me (Takagi)”

@ChristopherFritz

You get a feel for these over time.

Maybe, although I worry my brain is just skipping over this a bit too much. I think consuming more spoken media might help with this?

@shuly

I see @ChristopherFritz is responding and his reply will be way better than mine I’m sure…and he already finished before I got through し haha…

I appreciate you taking the time even if it didn’t come to fruition, thank you =D

[ChristopherFritz]

@chrisosaurus

So with that missing period this would be

I would say so. I don’t recall if I mentioned, but I spot-checked some other areas in the volume, and saw that a sentence-ending よ doesn’t seem to take a 。 after it in this manga. (Either author’s style choice, or editor’s, or publishers’s, I imagine.)

@chrisosaurus

Secondly, I also found the dual verbs kind of strange wrt to subject/actor/do-er.

The good news is, you get used to it in time. Well, I suppose I said as much before, but I think it’s worth saying again.

Some may come easier than others, but with enough time and exposure and breaking it down, you get used to it. I think て＋くれる was the first I really “got”, because that one seemed to show up most in what I read. て＋もらう on the other hand seems to come up the least in my reading, so I’m still shaky on it.

@chrisosaurus

Maybe, although I worry my brain is just skipping over this a bit too much. I think consuming more spoken media might help with this?

I felt the exact same way as you early on. Consume more media, and (for written media) occasionally force yourself to take notice of theses て＋あげる and て＋くれる and て＋もらう, and ensure you know what’s going on in them before continuing on. It doesn’t have to be every time.

I personally found it easiest to take notice of て＋くれる when Person A thanks Person B for doing something for them.

Once I got used to that, it become more clear to see where Person A speaks of Person B doing something for them (generally, rather than when thanking).

[chrisosaurus]

I would say so. I don’t recall if I mentioned, but I spot-checked some other areas in the volume, and saw that a sentence-ending よ doesn’t seem to take a 。 after it in this manga. (Either author’s style choice, or editor’s, or publishers’s, I imagine.)

Ohh that’s helpful to know it’s a general pattern, I’ll try keep an eye out for it.

The good news is, you get used to it in time. Well, I suppose I said as much before, but I think it’s worth saying again.

It’s still worth saying to me at least, so far it’s proving true each and every time =D

Some may come easier than others, but with enough time and exposure and breaking it down, you get used to it. I think て＋くれる was the first I really “got”, because that one seemed to show up most in what I read. て＋もらう on the other hand seems to come up the least in my reading, so I’m still shaky on it.

I’ve only really encountered these in an anime vocab Anki deck or in textbooks, at least consciously.

I felt the exact same way as you early on. Consume more media,

It’s helpful to know it’s not just me, heh.
The plan is definitely to eventually scale up media consumption, particularly following the Cure Dolly Anime breakdown approach, but currently a bit time pressed and I’ve been finding the existing things I’m doing (WK, Anki, Takagi, Chii’s, some Mario, and a little Pimsleur) to be reaping huge rewards.

and (for written media) occasionally force yourself to take notice of theses て＋あげる and て＋くれる and て＋もらう, and ensure you know what’s going on in them before continuing on. It doesn’t have to be every time.

For からかい上手の高木さん I’m writing out and breaking down every (non trivial) line in a book, it’s partly why it’s taking me so long, but my idea was to force myself to show that I know it - rather than just skimming over and guessing from context.

I’ve been going over old chapters occasionally when I remember something came up earlier that I can’t recall now. I’ve even made some of them into examples sentences for my Anki cards.

EDIT: apologies for the initially weird formatting, I was trying a reply by email for fun.
Thanks for those 2 examples, I’ll try go through them in more detail shortly!

[shuly]

@chrisosaurus

don't wanna derail here....

Don’t know if any of this is useful or if you wanted to try a method like this to break stuff down for detailed reading…haven’t really heard if this was helpful for anyone but a few people used the link…just something I did recently working on breaking down everything piece by piece hunting for every object, subject, etc… (kind of cure dolly style) with literal and natural translations.

Someone convinced me to post it (hadn’t planned on sharing it with anyone…but if someone gets something out of it… (might be mistakes and what not but if it helps)…

Sharing some extensive reading GJ部 - Vol 1 Chap 1 「ネクタイ」Detailed Breakdown

[chrisosaurus]

@shuly

if you wanted to try a method like this to break stuff down for detailed reading

Thanks for sharing, I took a look through your Google doc when you first posted but apparently I never actually sent my reply =/

I think what you’re doing is very close to the method I’m trying, which is helpful knowing as it makes me feel like I’m not on completely the wrong track.
The only differences are that I don’t use colours (all pencil), and I make heavy usage of drawings like arrows or squiggly lines and so forth. But both of those just come down to different mediums.
I like the idea that at some point I might digitise my work, but so far it hasn’t been a priority as I have too much reading to catch up on. I have been adding some of the sentences as example sentences to my Anki flash cards, but that’s all for now.

Thanks again for sharing, and good luck with your larger journey =D

[shuly]

off topic reply

Glad it helped…When I started, I used to use paper/pencil…sometimes still do.

For the purpose of GJBu I did an electronic approach as I was sometimes sharing what I did with a couple of native speakers…the idea of “0 Ga” was horrifying to the two native speakers I occasionally asked questions of…hehehe…

But when you say/ask…every sentence has to have a subject doesn’t it…then the light bulb went off and one of them said…(no joke)…how do we understand this stuff haha… (Some of those short sentences could be seriously misinterpreted if you don’t closely pay attention to the subject.)

Thus they understood my confusion and goals for that exercise. My main goal was to properly identify sentence break down, primarily the subject of the sentence, direct/indirect objects etc…that was the point. It’s a lot harder with a light novel as there are no helpful pictures.

When I’m reading something I just want to enjoy (not book club related)…I might look up a word or whatever and just move on…for the book clubs if I have to look it up I take the time to add it to the vocab list. For the ABBC I tend to add a lot of things I know (because as a beginner was super frustrating when it wasn’t populated.)

I finished the 2nd chapter but didn’t bother with as much detail…still made some mistakes but realized when I did…that I wasn’t paying close enough attention to who/what was the subject… just need to practice more.

[ChristopherFritz]

Keeping things off-topic.

@shuly

the idea of “0 Ga” was horrifying to the two native speakers

Imagine, you’re helping a Spanish-native who is learning English. This friend shows you a Superman comic, and they point to a panel where Jimmy Olsen says, “Sounds good, Mr. Kent.”

Then, this friend asks, perhaps in Spanish, “What is the vacío-subject of this sentence?”

(I just made that term up right now. Should translate as “void-subject”.)

Even if you know enough grammar to know what a “subject” is, the question would undoubtedly be quite confusing!

[chrisosaurus]

Keeping things off-topic.

Relatedly, within English there are lots of things which native speakers use every day, but which they would lack the terminology to discuss. Terms like gerund and past/present participle come to mind.

(As a native English speaker, these are terms I often forget or mix up and have to look at examples every time they come up.)

If you tried to have an English teacher / linguist explaining these concepts to another native English speaker, I wouldn’t expect it to be easy, despite that English speaker using those concepts intuitively all the time.

Thinking back to my high school English classes I remember seeing native English speakers, including myself, struggle with understanding the rules which they were already able to use intuitively.

I think this relates to learning as a child vs. learning as an adult.
As a child learning their native language, they aren’t thinking in terms of grammatical function or category, they are just pattern matching very large amounts of input and learning through intuition, feel, and trial/error.
As an adult, we often try short-circuit this by learning the underlying ‘rules’, giving the pieces names, and treating it very constructively.
It kind of makes sense to me that someone who learned as a native might lack understanding of the same ‘rules’ that an adult second language learner might be using.

For example, when I’m helping an English learner, I often end up having to test sentences out by saying them out loud - as I don’t know the rules confidently enough - but I can kind of reverse engineer some of them just from generating examples.

[Micki]

@ChristopherFritz

Thought of that way, whether 聞(き)く means “to hear (listen)” or “to ask” becomes more clear.

Just wanted to mention Jisho also lists this definition for 聞く which fits quite well in this sentence:

to follow (advice, order, etc.); to obey; to listen to; to comply with​

[mariodesu]

Let’s go with chapter 5

Reading the old messages I got the impression that this chapter is an easier read than the previous ones

Just some question on page 2, atm (I’ll be editing this message ‘till I don’t get replies)

• 1° panel: 途中まで一緒に帰ろーよ
  What does 途中まで mean?
  途中 is ‘on the way’ and まで is basically the opposite of から on a concept level (correct me if I’m wrong) but I don’t really see how these two words are combining except that I’m sensing it means something like ‘let’s come back together’

• 2° panel: 押すもん
  What does this mean? 押す is to push (the bicycle) but what is もん? Is it もの?

• 4° panel: そのジュース最近出たやつだよね、おいしい？ here, I guess やつ means ‘thing’ like saying “the thing with that juice is that it has come out (started production, don’t know how it’s said in english) recently, isn’t it? Delicious?”
  Is this correct?

Page 3

• 4° panel: 別にいいけどこれってさぁ… I guess here これって is just marking the これ topic, right? Like an inverted sentence: “(not) particularly good, but (go ahead, drink), as for this…” is this right?

• 6° Panel: はずかしがれ！！ what is this がれ? I couldn’t find anything edit: I had an insight, could it be helper がる in its imperative form がれ? This would mean that Nishikata is ordering (mentally) Takagi to feel embarrassed? “Feel embarrassed!”

[anon99047008]

Pg. 2

@mariodesu

途中 is ‘on the way’ and まで is basically the opposite of から on a concept level (correct me if I’m wrong) but I don’t really see how these two words are combining except that I’m sensing it means something like ‘let’s come back together’

I can see how you would think まで is the opposite of から, but just to make sure the nuance is understood:

When you use まで with a “place” word, it essentially means “up to location, but no further; to location but no further”. This is easier to conceptualize with a more determinate location:

駅まで行こう

“Let’s go to the station (but no further).”

In this case we have 途中, which means “on the way; en route”. Do keep in mind it can also mean, “halfway,” but I don’t think that definition fits here as well.

My interpretation of 途中まで here would be:

“On the way (but no further)”.

Basically, she is suggesting they walk together up to the point that they are taking the same route, but no further than that. That is, when one or the other needs to take a different road or something, they will separate and head home separately.

@mariodesu

What does this mean? 押す is to push (the bicycle) but what is もん? Is it もの?

Yes, it is a casual contraction of もの. Using もの to end sentences has similar vibes to the explanatory の, but it’s considered effeminate. Using もん is more casual, but it also feels a little cheeky to use in comparison to もの. Kind of like a, “so there; well, duh” kind of vibe, maybe? She explains it, but it seems like an obvious thing, so she takes a slightly cheeky tone.

@mariodesu

here, I guess やつ means ‘thing’ like saying “the thing with that juice is that it has come out (started production, don’t know how it’s said in english) recently, isn’t it? Delicious?”
Is this correct?

やつ is referring to an object in this case, but I’m not getting the “The thing is that it has come out” vibes from the sentence. There is not an explanatory の in the sentence.

Literal:

“As for that juice (dropped は), came out recently object, isn’t it? (Is it) tasty?”

Natural wording:

“That juice is the one (やつ) that came out recently, isn’t it? Is it good?”

Pg. 3

I think that’s pretty much it, yes, on the 4th panel.

@mariodesu

what is this がれ

がる in imperative form.

恥ずかしがる = to be bashful; to blush; to be shy of

His goal of mentioning the 間接キス was to try and make Takagi-san act bashful/shy/embarrassed, so he could tesse her.

[mariodesu]

@anon99047008

Basically, she is suggesting they walk together up to the point that they are taking the same route, but no further than that. That is, when one or the other needs to take a different road or something, they will separate and head home separately.

Perfectly clear now! I got your explanation of the nuance, let’s say it means ‘till that point’ (and not further)

@anon99047008

Kind of like a, “so there; well, duh” kind of vibe, maybe? She explains it, but it seems like an obvious thing, so she takes a slightly cheeky tone.

Okay I’m not familiar with those expressions but I totally got what you mean, also I didn’t know this use of もの!

@anon99047008

“The thing is that it has come out” vibes from the sentence. There is not an explanatory の in the sentence.

Indeed, it was more of a disperate attempt of mine in translating it damn, I didn’t think that the previous part was actually just modifying the やつ!

Everythinng clear about page 3 too

[mariodesu]

Page 5

Doubt on first panel
くそ…ここで少しでも恥ずかしがったら高木さんの思うつぼだ…
Edit: maybe I figured it out:

ここで → at this point (can ここ be used for a moment close in time instead of a place close in space?)

少しでも → even just a little/ just slightly

恥ずかしいかったら → If I give signs of being embarrassed (modified by 少しでも → if I show signs of being even slightly embarrassed)

高木さんの思うつぼだ → is Takagi-san expectations

Literally: Damn… at this point, even slightly, if I show embarrassed, is Takagi-san expectations

Natural: Damn… at this point if I give signs of being even slightly embarrassed, I will satisfy Takagi-san’s expectations…

[Kazzeon]

Yes, ここで, here.
で indicates location of action.

思うつぼ is apparently “just as expected”.

So the whole sentence would be something like, “Damn it, if I show even the slightest sign of being embarrassed, it’ll be just as Takagi expected.” Basically, “it’ll be her win”.

All of your translations were correct, I just changed them so that it read more naturally.

[mariodesu]

Hey, thanks for the help! I didn’t notice your answer and edited my interpretation while you were answering, could you give a check to my latest interpretation? Also - what space does ここで take in your translation?

[mariodesu]

Page 5

1° panel, 2° speech bubble

いや…のむよ？ぜんぜん…
This is obviously a sentence cut in half (…is it?)
My interpretation in natural english: “Well/ er… drink? I’m not… (thirsty ?)”

Perhaps I’m wrong, and the sentence wasn’t going to end into a negation, and it’s more like
“Well/er… drink? Totally (fine)”

2° panel

なんでもない…こんなのなんでもない…
“It’s nothing…” this is not a problem…”
I guess that after こんなの there’s something implicit? Like こんなのこと?

Page 9

4° panel

なんていい気分だ！！
Not sure how is なんて used here (damn nante!),
いい気分 probably means “good mood” (I think Nishikata is referring to the fact that Takagi-san having lost her cool-mindedness and this goes to his advantage to win the can throwing competition).
I’d hazard that なんて means ‘such a…’ and coupled with the だ at the end the semtence should mean: “is such a good mood (for my situation)”
Is my guess correct?

5° panel

もし高木さんが買ったらなんでも言うコト聞いてあげるよ。
The subject here is confusing me. Is there an implicit change of subject at the end of the sentence? It begins with Takagi-san being it, and she performs the conditional ‘if win’. Then, there is ‘whatever thing said’ and the subject is Takagi so it’s clear that it is ‘whatever thing you, Takagi-san, say’. In the last part I get a bit lost. I guessed what it means because I vaguely remember the anime episode, but I’d probably be in total confusion otherwise. We have 聞いてあげる which is an action made as a favour (because of あげる) to someone. If takagi san is the subject, shouldn’t she be the one doing this (listen, ask, hear, whatever) to someone? Then why my intuition and the old messages are all pointing to the fact that Nishikata is the one doing Takagi-san a favour of listening to whatever she’ll say? I mean, this is the only possible conclusion on a logical level but on a grammar level I can’t make sense of it. If there was an “おれが” then I could accept it but it seems weird to me to make implicit such a big part of the sentence

Page 11

2° panel

本気で私がこの程度の距離外すと思ったの？
I think I grasped the general meaning of the sentence
“Did you seriously (本気で) think I miss from this ‘amount of distance’?”
Is this translation correct? Is 本気で referred to Nishikata thinking as in my example above?

3° panel

ほらほらさっさと投げなよ
Can’t get what ほらほら means, maybe because english translations don’t make a lot of sense to me, what is “look, look!” In this context?
Also, what is と purpose after さっさ?

[anon99047008]

Pg. 5

@mariodesu

I guess that after こんなの there’s something implicit? Like こんなのこと?

There doesn’t need to be anything implicit. の acts a stand in for a noun on its own right; if it helps you picture that as the case, you can imagine the implicit こと, but it’s not necessary at all.

こんなの is more like "this sort of thing, " by the way, but simplifying to “this” works fine in this context.

Pg. 9

The “such a thing as” なんて is a particle, and needs to follow what it modifies, so this is 何て. When preceding a noun, it’s used like we use “What a…” in English. It has an effect of implying surprise, either good or bad, so it’s kinda similar to the particle なんて, but has different positioning in a sentence.

In this case, “What a good feeling this is!”

He’s basically reveling in the feeling that he seems to have managed to disrupt her usual cool-headedness.

@mariodesu

We have 聞いてあげる which is an action made as a favour (because of あげる) to someone

@mariodesu

If there was an “おれが” then I could accept it but it seems weird to me to make implicit such a big part of the sentence

Well, large parts of the sentence being implicit is just a major part of Japanese. You do get used to it, I promise, and there are usually some strong clues. This one is the あげる you mention. The important thing to realize, as you mention, is that it’s doing a favor for someone else, but I would add that this is from the point of view of the speaker who is acting as the giver, and so is separate from the subject. So he is, as you correctly figure out, saying he’ll (do her the favor of) listening to whatever she asks of him.

He doesn’t use オレが, because in Japanese, it’s rare to use first person pronouns. It’s pretty much implicit, unless otherwise specified, that your point of view is the one you are speaking from and about, but the most important clue in this sentence is that あげる is never used unless the speaker is the one “giving” the action, so from a Japanese perspective, it’s very obvious he will be doing the listening.

Pg. 11

Your translation is correct for the 2nd panel.

@mariodesu

Can’t get what ほらほら means, maybe because english translations don’t make a lot of sense to me, what is “look, look!” In this context?

ほら is basically just a way to get somebody’s attention. I don’t know if it really has a direct translation, but “look!” would work in some cases, if there was something you wanted somebody to look at. A closer approximation might be the way we use “Hey” in English to grab somebody’s attention. This could be followed by whatever we want the person to pay attention to.

“Hey, look at that!”

Or…

“Hey, listen!”

Her ほらほら is basically just her signalling he should pay attention to what she is about to draw his attention to; in this case, she wants him to pay attention to her words.

@mariodesu

Also, what is と purpose after さっさ?

Adverbial と. さっさと is like “quickly; without delay,” but can also carry vibes of “indifferently,” which I might also word as “carelessly.”

Overall interpretation:

“Hey, listen, don’t quickly/carelessly throw (the can).”

[mariodesu]

@anon99047008

you can imagine the implicit こと, but it’s not necessary at all.

Oh I think I got what you mean, I prefer to be strict with these things to avoid potential confusion later on, so I’ll get rid of this こと () this time

@anon99047008

The “such a thing as” なんて is a particle, and needs to follow what it modifies, so this is 何て.

I’m afraid here I’m double guilty of mistaking it because I thought that 何て was the ‘such a thing’ and the other use was given by なん(の)て. I keep confusing this grammar point (and many others)…
It’s clear now

@anon99047008

from the point of view of the speaker who is acting as the giver, and so is separate from the subject.

This was a tricky one… Can be very confusing at times

@anon99047008

あげる is never used unless the speaker is the one “giving” the action, so from a Japanese perspective, it’s very obvious he will be doing the listening.

Ok, sounds good, I guess this was the major hint to understand it (apart that for a native it’s a plain obvious thing for 10 reasons)

@anon99047008

Her ほらほら is basically just her signalling he should pay attention to what she is about to draw his attention to; in this case, she wants him to pay attention to her words.

Oh okay this was the exact explanation I was looking for

@anon99047008

“Hey, listen, don’t quickly/carelessly throw (the can).”

I think I lost this negation - wasn’t the な at the end the imperative なさい?

Can’t thank you enough for the help again!!

[anon99047008]

@mariodesu

I think I lost this negation - wasn’t the な at the end the imperative なさい?

That was me making a silly mistake. You are correct.

“Hey, listen, throw the can quickly/carelessly.”

Mm.

Actually. I’m at odds with myself here. I feel like it actually is negative. I’ve seen な on its own to mean “don’t”, and it feels more like what she would say to taunt him, especially given the following sentence.

@ChristopherFritz, thoughts?

@mariodesu

I know that answering the ton of dumb questions I ask can put under trial one’s focus

No such thing as dumb questions! As you can see, I’m actually back and forth on this one.

My final answer, @mariodesu, though I would still like another opinion: It’s なさい. I think if it were negative, it would be 投げんな, where the ん would be short for る. 投げるな would be “Don’t throw.”

[mariodesu]

@anon99047008

That was me making a silly mistake.

I know that answering the ton of dumb questions I ask can put under trial one’s focus