Teasing Master Takagi-san 😝 ・ Volume 1, chapter 5

Sorry for the late reply, I read your reply on the first day and actioned the help, but I’ve been moving house so I kept running out of time to actually finish write this reply (it was written piecemeal over multiple days).

Thanks again for the thorough replies and explanation.

ohhh, ohhhhhhh!

I (in theory) had learned that about し but only ever seen it as the final particle, whereas here it was followed by オレ so my brain drew a complete blank.

So with that missing period this would be 勝負?別にいいよ。負けないしオレ。 ?

That makes sense, the article also somehow clicked for me (on my third attempt at reading it)
I think I was stuck on thinking of 別に too literally and for some reason the expression/phrase forms weren’t clicking, hopefully next time this happens I’ll think back to this.

This may sound silly, but when you say this it makes so much sense, but when I tried going through a similar process at first I got stuck.

I think I was interpreting it as either
Nishikata will listen for Takagi - nonsense
Nishikata will ask for Takagi - nonsense
From context I then guessed “I’ll listen to you (for you / as a favour)” but I felt I was just guessing rather than actually understanding how I got there.

Now it seems somewhat obvious to me
Nishikata will listen to Takagi (as a favour to/for Takagi)

Secondly, I also found the dual verbs kind of strange wrt to subject/actor/do-er.

なんでも言うコト
Whatever (someone) says - Takagi is the one 言う-ing
聞いてあげる
Nishikata is the one listening to Takagi - Nishikata is the one 聞く-ing (due to 上げる)

I don’t think I’d seen a sentence with this kind of verb shape before, without context this would have totally confused me.

In English we would make this explicit nouns as “I will listen to whatever you say”, so I think it is just a matter of me being unfamiliar with the Japanese equivalent.

That’s about as far as I got.
So we have 言う → te form + くれる, which gave me:
“(someone) will say something/speak for/to me (Takagi)”

Maybe, although I worry my brain is just skipping over this a bit too much. I think consuming more spoken media might help with this?

I appreciate you taking the time even if it didn’t come to fruition, thank you =D

4 Likes

I would say so. I don’t recall if I mentioned, but I spot-checked some other areas in the volume, and saw that a sentence-ending よ doesn’t seem to take a 。 after it in this manga. (Either author’s style choice, or editor’s, or publishers’s, I imagine.)

The good news is, you get used to it in time. Well, I suppose I said as much before, but I think it’s worth saying again.

Some may come easier than others, but with enough time and exposure and breaking it down, you get used to it. I think て+くれる was the first I really “got”, because that one seemed to show up most in what I read. て+もらう on the other hand seems to come up the least in my reading, so I’m still shaky on it.

I felt the exact same way as you early on. Consume more media, and (for written media) occasionally force yourself to take notice of theses て+あげる and て+くれる and て+もらう, and ensure you know what’s going on in them before continuing on. It doesn’t have to be every time.

I personally found it easiest to take notice of て+くれる when Person A thanks Person B for doing something for them.

Once I got used to that, it become more clear to see where Person A speaks of Person B doing something for them (generally, rather than when thanking).

3 Likes

I would say so. I don’t recall if I mentioned, but I spot-checked some other areas in the volume, and saw that a sentence-ending よ doesn’t seem to take a 。 after it in this manga. (Either author’s style choice, or editor’s, or publishers’s, I imagine.)

Ohh that’s helpful to know it’s a general pattern, I’ll try keep an eye out for it.

The good news is, you get used to it in time. Well, I suppose I said as much before, but I think it’s worth saying again.

It’s still worth saying to me at least, so far it’s proving true each and every time =D

Some may come easier than others, but with enough time and exposure and breaking it down, you get used to it. I think て+くれる was the first I really “got”, because that one seemed to show up most in what I read. て+もらう on the other hand seems to come up the least in my reading, so I’m still shaky on it.

I’ve only really encountered these in an anime vocab Anki deck or in textbooks, at least consciously.

I felt the exact same way as you early on. Consume more media,

It’s helpful to know it’s not just me, heh.
The plan is definitely to eventually scale up media consumption, particularly following the Cure Dolly Anime breakdown approach, but currently a bit time pressed and I’ve been finding the existing things I’m doing (WK, Anki, Takagi, Chii’s, some Mario, and a little Pimsleur) to be reaping huge rewards.

and (for written media) occasionally force yourself to take notice of theses て+あげる and て+くれる and て+もらう, and ensure you know what’s going on in them before continuing on. It doesn’t have to be every time.

For からかい上手の高木さん I’m writing out and breaking down every (non trivial) line in a book, it’s partly why it’s taking me so long, but my idea was to force myself to show that I know it - rather than just skimming over and guessing from context.

I’ve been going over old chapters occasionally when I remember something came up earlier that I can’t recall now. I’ve even made some of them into examples sentences for my Anki cards.

EDIT: apologies for the initially weird formatting, I was trying a reply by email for fun.
Thanks for those 2 examples, I’ll try go through them in more detail shortly!

3 Likes

@chrisosaurus

don't wanna derail here....

Don’t know if any of this is useful or if you wanted to try a method like this to break stuff down for detailed reading…haven’t really heard if this was helpful for anyone but a few people used the link…just something I did recently working on breaking down everything piece by piece hunting for every object, subject, etc… (kind of cure dolly style) with literal and natural translations.

Someone convinced me to post it (hadn’t planned on sharing it with anyone…but if someone gets something out of it… (might be mistakes and what not but if it helps)…

Sharing some extensive reading GJ部 - Vol 1 Chap 1 「ネクタイ」Detailed Breakdown

2 Likes

Thanks for sharing, I took a look through your Google doc when you first posted but apparently I never actually sent my reply =/

I think what you’re doing is very close to the method I’m trying, which is helpful knowing as it makes me feel like I’m not on completely the wrong track.
The only differences are that I don’t use colours (all pencil), and I make heavy usage of drawings like arrows or squiggly lines and so forth. But both of those just come down to different mediums.
I like the idea that at some point I might digitise my work, but so far it hasn’t been a priority as I have too much reading to catch up on. I have been adding some of the sentences as example sentences to my Anki flash cards, but that’s all for now.

Thanks again for sharing, and good luck with your larger journey =D

2 Likes
off topic reply

Glad it helped…When I started, I used to use paper/pencil…sometimes still do.

For the purpose of GJBu I did an electronic approach as I was sometimes sharing what I did with a couple of native speakers…the idea of “0 Ga” was horrifying to the two native speakers I occasionally asked questions of…hehehe…

But when you say/ask…every sentence has to have a subject doesn’t it…then the light bulb went off and one of them said…(no joke)…how do we understand this stuff haha… (Some of those short sentences could be seriously misinterpreted if you don’t closely pay attention to the subject.)

Thus they understood my confusion and goals for that exercise. My main goal was to properly identify sentence break down, primarily the subject of the sentence, direct/indirect objects etc…that was the point. It’s a lot harder with a light novel as there are no helpful pictures.

When I’m reading something I just want to enjoy (not book club related)…I might look up a word or whatever and just move on…for the book clubs if I have to look it up I take the time to add it to the vocab list. For the ABBC I tend to add a lot of things I know (because as a beginner was super frustrating when it wasn’t populated.)

I finished the 2nd chapter but didn’t bother with as much detail…still made some mistakes but realized when I did…that I wasn’t paying close enough attention to who/what was the subject… just need to practice more.

3 Likes
Keeping things off-topic.

Imagine, you’re helping a Spanish-native who is learning English. This friend shows you a Superman comic, and they point to a panel where Jimmy Olsen says, “Sounds good, Mr. Kent.”

Then, this friend asks, perhaps in Spanish, “What is the vacío-subject of this sentence?”

(I just made that term up right now. Should translate as “void-subject”.)

Even if you know enough grammar to know what a “subject” is, the question would undoubtedly be quite confusing!

3 Likes
Keeping things off-topic.

Relatedly, within English there are lots of things which native speakers use every day, but which they would lack the terminology to discuss. Terms like gerund and past/present participle come to mind.

(As a native English speaker, these are terms I often forget or mix up and have to look at examples every time they come up.)

If you tried to have an English teacher / linguist explaining these concepts to another native English speaker, I wouldn’t expect it to be easy, despite that English speaker using those concepts intuitively all the time.

Thinking back to my high school English classes I remember seeing native English speakers, including myself, struggle with understanding the rules which they were already able to use intuitively.

I think this relates to learning as a child vs. learning as an adult.
As a child learning their native language, they aren’t thinking in terms of grammatical function or category, they are just pattern matching very large amounts of input and learning through intuition, feel, and trial/error.
As an adult, we often try short-circuit this by learning the underlying ‘rules’, giving the pieces names, and treating it very constructively.
It kind of makes sense to me that someone who learned as a native might lack understanding of the same ‘rules’ that an adult second language learner might be using.

For example, when I’m helping an English learner, I often end up having to test sentences out by saying them out loud - as I don’t know the rules confidently enough - but I can kind of reverse engineer some of them just from generating examples.

2 Likes