Chapter 5 discussion thread
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How is the reading going?
- I am reading along this week
- I will catch up later
- I won’t be reading (anymore)
Takagi makes some scarily evil faces in this one, I thought.
And the ending left me wondering…
very cute chapter again, it’s pretty amazing how reading only 5 chapters has made me improve so much, i should really read more, thanks again for setting this up.
i need some help on the last page, last panel though.
ch page 16 spoilers
される is the passive form of する right? i’m completely clueless when it comes to that, so i’m not exactly sure what’s being said here.
so something like "thing like that doing (to me? against his will?)
what is the と doing in this sentence? conditional? with? quoting? it looks like there is a space between the と and なんか, so did he cut off his sentence?
the rest of the sentence means something like: “since to feel (once in a) lifetime win will be lost” i guess.
from what i can infer from context, he wants to bring the topic back to what tagaki-san said, as he was about to throw the can (hopeful he’ll still get that first kiss?), but some clarification would be great.
That sentence gave me trouble as well. This is how I understood it, but please feel free to correct me:
page 16 (on passive)
I read that passive is generally more polite compared to active verbs, since they are more indirect. Tae Kim says in his guide that どうする？ and どうされますか。are essentially the same sentence, except for higher politeness. While I don’t know how true that example specifically is, I thought I’d mention it.
Wasabi covers it under indirect passive sentences.
Maybe it helps to add the subject. I think this sentence from Nishikata is
僕が 高木さんに そういうことを される
So literally “I am receiving ‘you doing this thing’ from you”
According to that wasabi page:
Be careful; this grammar generally denotes a negative connotation.
Which would fit this context, if we consider the rest of the sentence.
The と is the conditional, I believe.
“If you do this (the whole indirect passive thing), It kind of feels like I will never win in my lifetime.”
(I am not 100% sure on the second part of the sentence though )
Right? I feel so too. The first chapter was such hard work, I wasn’t even sure I could cope. I can’t say that I’m reading fluently now, nothing like that, but the progress I’ve made really amazes me. Reading really is the best way of learning, at least for me. Reading and the discussions here of course - thanks everyone!
As for page 16:
To add to @Jiell_1 's explanation, Cure Dolly calls this form “receptive” instead of “passive”, and i think this really helps with understanding. される would be “receive the doing”, so it’s something someone else does that affects you?
Not entirely sure about the と. The spacing makes me think that he indeed cuts off his sentence, and that the なんか (another word that’s often hard for me to pin down) is separate from both the previous part and the next part.
The next part seems to me to mean "because I feel I’m never winning again in my life. Could it mean “once in a lifetime win” instead? That’s an interesting take, I’ll look a little more into it. Although I don’t think he (consciously) wanted to be kissed .
I feel that there’s a “why” in there somewhere (the なんか maybe?), but maybe that’s because I want to ask why myself.
Could it mean “once in a lifetime win” instead? That’s an interesting take, I’ll look a little more into it.
i wouldn’t look too much into what i said, i have such a low understanding of this speech bubble it’s most likely my brain just making up whatever i think it should mean at this point.
the greatest/once in a lifetime thing seems to only work when there’s a の after 一生 and might be super specific, when i look it up on いっしょう - Jisho.org
your translation makes more sense i think.
Just finished - to think that I managed it in one sitting when in chapter 1 it took me as long to get through two pages. I think there were less knotty internal monologues to get through here, but still I’m happy about that.
My take on the page 16 fun
Seeing everyone’s takes on it, I think the と is absolutely conditional - being a when/if (and according to this video an extra nuance being that it implies the statement is a natural result of the condition - that this thing happening always means the statement)
I wasn’t too sure with the 勝てなくなる because I’m still a little shaky with this particular grammatical form. “to become not victorious” makes sense though, and I think I just need to see it more since I had trouble with this last time
So breaking it down - anyone can feel free to correct me if I’m wrong in my thinking anywhere, I’m not 100% on this:
そういう = like that
こと = things
される = to do to (I’m presuming Takagi is the doer and Nishikata is the person having something done to him)
と = when/if
なんか = somehow
一生 = lifetime
勝てなくなる = to become not victorious
気がする = feel as if
から = because
それは = that (set as the topic)
そういうことされると = when (you) do things like that to me,
なんか = somehow
一生 = in my lifetime
勝てなくなる気がする = feel as if will not be victorious
からそれは = because (the former), that’s
When (you) do things like that (to me), somehow I feel as if I won’t become victorious in my lifetime, so that’s…
I found this one a bit easier to read than some to the others. It could be that I am getting accustomed to reading from top to bottom as opposed to left to right.
Off topic, but does anyone else catch themselves turning the pages the wrong way in non-Japanese books? I constantly flick the wrong way when I’m reading English ebooks now, and then get confused when the text is suspiciously familiar. I’m sure it will all be very beneficial to my brain flexibility-wise in the long run… Sort of like getting used to driving on different sides of the road, but less dangerous.
This happened to me recently
Just after reading a japanese ebook I switched to an english one, and was confused why I was suddenly at the table of contents
I also had a friend hold a manga for the first time last week. I was so confused when they awkwardly turned the book around, since they didn’t know where to open it.
“What are they… oooh because other books aren’t like that!”
I legit forgot.
The trick is to set the e-reader so tapping the top half of the screen goes back a page and tapping the bottom half goes forward a page. (Although this doesn’t work if you prefer the swipe motion to turn the page.)
Read up to page 8 so far and the dialogue is much easier to follow than last chapter. I’ll probably finish tomorrow going at this rate.
I… had this sort of ability in me.
Nishikata is surprised here that he has this ability in himself. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe オレに has the meaning of “in me” as opposed to オレは which would be speaking more generally about himself, right? Is there a difference in nuance between the two?
は marks the topic, the thing a comment is being made about. In this sentence, the topic is not stated. The topic doesn’t provide any new information.
に essentially marks a destination. This provides new information.
In the case of this sentence, the subject is 才能, and it is being said that this subject is doing the verb あった (existed). The destination of where 才能 existed is オレ. In English, we might say that 才能 existed within オレ.
Regarding difference in nuance, it’s hard for me to say, because they have completely different usages.
This chapter felt easier for me too. Some of the grammar points we discussed from the earlier chapters keep coming again, and it’s a good feeling to understand without looking up.
I have one quick question.
What is the meaning of 押す here? I couldn’t pick one from Jisho.
Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary
I should think it means to push .
She’s explaining that she’s going to be pushing the bicycle instead of riding it.
I’m still managing to read along. Even though I’ve been protesting all day and by the last page I couldn’t keep my eyes open from exhaustion. I was determined to keep up with reading this.
This one felt like it went by pretty quick, not sure if I’m improving or it’s just how the chapter is structured, but it’s still a good feeling. Like others I also had a hard time with page 16 so thanks for all the breakdowns so far!
I have two grammar questions from this chapter, thanks in advance!
#1 - Page 9: Nishikata thinks: 取り乱している. I’m not really sure what this means at all. Jisho tells me it’s the verbs “to take” and “to throw into disorder” and that it’s an ongoing action, but what is that supposed to mean? Is he scheming to throw her off her game with his preposition further down the page?
#2 - Page 16: As the first half of this panel has already been discussed I’ll ask a question about the second speech-bubble. The phrase is: 勝てないからいいんじゃない？I’m not a 100% sure who says this one, but I’m guessing Nishikata as there is an ahaha in response. I can’t quite figure out the meaning. Is it something like: “Since I didn’t win, are we still good?” I can’t tell what he’s referring to with the second part of the sentence.
I thought that Takagi was saying that line.
And the アハハ shows the manner that she is saying that with. So she is jokingly saying:
“You didn’t win anyway, so it’s fine, right?”
The subject is not stated in this sentence, so I guess it could be either, but I also think the speech bubbles would be connected if Nishakata was saying this.
I took them all to be thought bubbles (it’s never entirely clear, is it?). Nishikata’s bubbles are often disconnected, and we can’t even see Takagi (or anyone) in that frame. You may be right, though. I guess a look at the anime episode might answer that.
Edit: I had a look, and it seems you were right. In the anime at least, it’s Takagi saying that.