There aren’t a dozen. Most are usually 2-3 of same reading. Rarely more (of same kanji/same reading/same or near level)
And after enough reviews there are rarely any left in clumps (if they still are together, it simply means I know them since neither fall down)
There is more than enough time to “forget” an exposure when in Enlightened for 4 months. You don’t get enough exposures from same/similar items in that period to warrant it "seen too much to say you truly remembered)
As for first, yes, if you do them as they unlock and did the kanji spaced you don’t get 100 lessons at once., and thus several vocab from same kanji at once. But you can choose to wait, and let them combine, if this is important to you. You don’t need to purposefully not do items from 3 levels ago to achieve the effect.
A point to consider though. WK has a set order they want to teach you the kanji and vocabs.
If you learn them in the wrong order you will find several “You know this reading already”, when you don’t.
This might be more apparent in the later levels, but even within the same level this happens.
I have given them the suggestion to just add the mnemonic to each, instead of saying “you know this already”, when it happened to me recently. I was unaware that a script I have randomised the order even when I didn’t ask it to do anything.
Since if you made the first one alright, but fail the second, it is better to have the mnemonic readily available anyway.
They have no plans of changing this as of now though.
I’m worried about both the same readings and different readings, which cause leeches. So double your count (at least, since more than 2 readings is also common). Also, since most vocab contain multiple kanji, there is again more than you might think. My ‘dozen’ is probably hyperbole, but it was both noticeable and annoying to me, and getting worse when I got to the 20s. If you didn’t find it a problem, good on you. I did.
We have different ideas of what’s a clump, it seems. In particular, at higher levels, it doesn’t need to be a single session.
I found it (and still find it) very annoying when it happens, but with this method, it doesn’t happen very often. Five levels may be more than necessary to break the effect, but as I’ve seen no negatives that outweigh the positives. If I see them later on, I will shift. One of the great things about WK is the meta-learning it provides. Learning how to learn kanji is, for me, really fun, so experimenting with these different approaches and analyzing what works for me is really part of the goal. I understand that not everyone will get a kick out of it, but I do. And I find the benefits (for now) more than adequate to keep doing it.
So I don’t purposefully wait to do items. I randomly choose items to do. Fate decides. Five levels wasn’t chosen, it evolved based upon how quickly the levels get done. Basically, the n-1 level (90% or more unlocked) has more undone vocab than the n-2 which has more than the n-3. n-5 is almost fully complete by this time, because I’ve been sampling from it for the last 5 levels of progress. So I naturally, by randomly selecting vocab, get mostly stuff from level n, a little less from n-1, less again from n-2, etc. It’s a constantly decreasing tail.
For me, five levels is about 6 weeks (at ~20 items per day), so each level’s vocabulary gets done over a 6 week period that overlaps other levels. Which means that by the time my kanji reach Enlightened, I’ll have done most of their level’s vocab to some level of proficiency.
One last thing. It’s not as if this is different from real reading in the world. In your reading, you get words at random, spaced at various intervals. Sometimes you’ll read something on a specific subject and will get a clump of kanji related to that subject all at once. Sometimes you’ll get isolated words that use a kanji you haven’t seen in awhile. That’s part of reading native material.
I like it. It feels more natural to me. Maybe I’m an outlier. We all learn differently. I have found this process to work way better for a multitude of reasons than doing stuff in strict order. I’ve tried, and possibly failed, to articulate these. Enough that anyone coming to this thread in the future will have a good idea of the method and be able to evaluate whether it is something worth trying for them.
Things that work for you or me or anyone else will not work for everyone. So all we can do is offer up what we’ve found to work and hope people find the method that works for them. That’s why we’re here, isn’t it? To help?
I do appreciate the advice, though I’m not changing my process just yet. You’ve mentioned flaws in the system that you see. I either don’t see them as flaws, or have found the things this system does well outweigh those negatives. I also appreciate the discussion. The best thing we can do here when helping new learners is to discuss methods in both their strengths and their weaknesses so that the learner can figure out what works for them.
tl;dr I’m not changing my system, and I won’t change your mind about it at this point. And that’s ultimately ok. Thanks for the interesting discussion. It’s really great that we could talk, and have such strong opinions about methodology without it getting heated.
No, 3 is the actual norm, and rarely is more. Look at the kanji page you will find half has only 3 vocab or less, counting all readings, and those with more usually have vocabs unlocked at later levels. Kanji who give more vocab than 3 at unlock are rare, if any. Yes, some kanji has a good number of vocab, but some I haven’t even unlocked yet at my current level when i looked at random kanji at lvl 21 (has some of the numerous kanji).
If you are fine with 3 vocab, with some different readings, then it works as intended. There are no half dozens at unlock that I know of
No, I have my similar vocabs divided in weeks and months, after failing one but not the other at Guru/master level. I’m not talking hours, or even days.
But honestly, the most important part is to actually do the vocab, late or not. Some try to just do the kanji and think that is enough, just to fail every review later (the vocab does help strengthen the recollection)
I find delaying them even a week from Kanji guru is enough to weaken the recollection for me. The kanji gets strengthened by having the vocab drilled shortly after first guruing it. And then, once both kanji and vocab has moved on to higher areas, they are more likely to stay in long term memory after their exposures.
I don’t really care about 0/0 at all. Definitely not slowing down my progress for that. I can’t imagine myself being motivated by losing several days for numbers which only mean you have nothing to do atm. One can get them by just doing lessons at any speed and regularly messing up reviews, thus having 0 or even negative progress. I totally understand people, who are happy about good speed + accuracy though, because that means they are learning fast and well.
Getting the 0/0 can easily be done without losing speed. Just do all Kanji right away for full speed, then divide the vocab on the days it takes to Guru those Kanji. This is how I did it when going full speed.
And that zero don’t last long, it is just a quick breeder. There is usually more reviews coming next hour, new lessons in later same day.
The 0/0 simply means you aren’t neglecting your vocab or leaving reviews
That’s exactly what I was talikng about. 0/0 can happen in pretty much any scenario where you just do your lessons. It can happen if you go slow and fail, or if you go fast and have good accuracy. That’s why it basically indicates nothing besides having no pending lessons and that the last review session was probably less than an hour ago. While being fast and accurate can’t be achieved by failing and stalling, and it can only mean you’re fast and accurate. Which is why I always turn to that to understand how productive my wk activity is.
It does indicate something. It means you can’t possibly have left past level vocabulary lessons behind, and you are keeping up with your reviews; both very important parts.
Some people du re-order abuse, leave the vocab behind on purpose cause they feel too swamped, yet can’t stop leveling. They end up with several levels worth of vocab left behind, and very often end up resetting their level.
We call this “re-order abuse jail”, as a fun term. And the amount of people who has done it is NOT low!
And many struggle to get zero reviews, cause they come in faster than they can handle. “I haven’t had zero reviews for months!” some say, and that is not good. It is highly recommended to try get zero at least once daily, more if possible, to get to the items on their srs time.
So yes, it indicates a whole lot!
Just cause it CAN be achieved in other ways, doesn’t take away its value for those going fast.
It feels kind of intuitive and natural to me that it’s necessary too keep up with the reviews. I’m surprised anyone would do lessons without being able to get the reviews done. And I don’t use scripts and hate mobile so I avoid using my phone too, except for getting radicals at the start of each lesson. I’m not new to language learning, so I can sometimes make adjustments for myself and break some rules, but also, I see that wk is pretty well designed in terms of material flow, so I don’t feel like putting in a lot of effort for little improvements. I guess I’m in a natural safe mode from the overwhelming situation you described because I dislike doing lessons a lot more than I dislike doing reviews. I’m able to keep track of my pending lessons without having to look at stats and numbers all the time. I could never keep track of my accuracy like that. For some reason I feel like it’s a lot lower than it actually is.
To those who can’t figure out how wk works I would recommend just running the default version. Why bother changing something designed by professionals, who did a great job in terms of material flow I might add, if you don’t even understand how it works? It’s like trying to improve a car engine without having any idea how it functions. “I’ll just get rid of a couple of liters of engine oil. Then my car will be lighter and can go faster, right?”
Honestly, if you look at the “Lvl 60 Posts” where they tell their story and about their journey, almost all list a whole bunch of scripts they used and recommend. Yes, some have pitfalls and can be abused, but most are super helpful and augments your journey.
I do everything on a computer cause I much prefer my script version.
The creators of WK are very supportive of the scripts.
The best isn’t to not use scripts, but use them right
I use lesson filter to force vocabulary to appear earlier in the cycle. So that I’m reinforcing with the vocabulary earlier than WK’s defaults would have. A lesson session will either be 5 vocabulary or 2 kanji and 3 vocabulary. I rarely do a lesson session of all kanji. Works better for me and I don’t end up 100+ vocabulary words to work through on level n-1 after having leveled up.
Which is exactly why I would strongly recommend anyone to first get a feel and full understanding of how this platform works before changing anything. I’d say it takes a full cycle, up to the point when you have burnt a few things, because you can’t know how burning items will go even if you are 3 months in.
Again. Someone might want this script, but I’d rather have my brain figure out this on it’s own to let it sink in more naturally. So I don’t think it should be a part of the main program.
What do you think about a fake radical indicator. Should it be part of the main program?
All radicals are made up, so not sure what you even mean by that.
They have no official names even in Japanese.
Sure, some are more widely used, others are completely unique to WaniKani; but none are fake.