それでも歩は寄せてくる | Week 4 Discussion ♟

第05-06局

Pages 41-56

Start Date: 31st July
Previous Week: 第03-04局
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それでも歩は寄せてくる - Home Thread

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Just finished up Chapter 5! I will read the other chapter tomorrow morning, I have some errands I have to finish up today now that I’ve read through both Takagi-san and one of the chapters for this manga.

I have to say, trying to find the shogi-specific terms sometimes can be a pain. Jisho is pretty good at having most of them, but 二枚落ち was nowhere to be found there. Found it on Japanese Wikipedia after a google search, though! Definitely took me a couple of minutes longer than it would usually to find a word, in the end, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. I’m unlikely to forget it now. :stuck_out_tongue:

Otherwise, I didn’t run into any new grammar, just stuff I have seen before, so no questions on Chapter 5 (we shall see if that remains true for Chapter 6).

Panel comment

This smile exchange was so precious and sweet, I couldn’t help but smile as well.

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Series shogi spoiler: this term comes up from time to time, so it’s worth remembering!

For those new to the term (which I figure is most of us), it refers to a handicap to give the less experienced player an advantage.

The two-piece handicap takes two pieces off the board from the more experienced player: their rook and bishop.

There’s also a four-piece handicap, which further removes the better player’s two lances.

And in six-piece handicap, the better player also loses both of their knights.

Normally the pieces are removed from the game completely. However, there is a variation, called 駒持ち, where the pieces go to the lesser player’s hand (same as if they captured them), allowing them to drop one of the pieces on to the board rather than moving on a turn.

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the artist really captured him dying inside really well, got a chuckle out of me

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I have a question just after the 二枚落ちで on pg. 44. What exactly is she saying with 相手してやるよそしたらさ?

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Pg. 44

How I broke it down; as always, I may be incorrect.

相手して = to the other party (in this case, Ayumu)

やる= to do; to play

よ= the よ throws me a bit, but I read it as the third option given in Jisho, sorta an attention grabber in mid-sentence: Jisho.org: Japanese Dictionary

そしたら = contraction of そうしたら, means something along the lines of, “if that’s the case”

さ = sentence ender, has a lot of uses. I think it’s sorta playful assertiveness here.

Taken all together, with the じゃ… じゃあ 二枚落ちで, my translation thus became:

“Well…well, then I will play with a two-piece handicap!”

I’m not sure how to represent the よ in English here; a mid-sentence “Hey” doesn’t do it for me (could maybe be like, “Well…well, hey! Then…”?), but I just kinda accepted it was there and difficult to translate.

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yeah i think this is a good breakdown, adding to that just to clarify, i’m pretty sure the first sentence ends after the よ (atleast i think there would be a slight pause), the そしたらさー is the beginning of the next one but she gets cut off.
so adding to your translation “Well…well, then I will play with a two-piece handicap! Because then-”

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This is generally going pretty smoothly, but I want a little help with the panel where the two people walk in on the third page of chapter 6 (page 53 on my bookwalker version but I don’t think its numbers match what other people have been using).

Summary

Ok, so they apologize first. Then what looks to me like “Just now, my boyfriend…” something. できちゃってさ loses me. At first my brain jumped straight to something about できる which can mean a whole lot of different things, but there’s always で as a particle… but it’s a weird one to mark people with, in the usages I know. If it was, き could just be the stem of くる? Part of why I want to ask is ちゃって LOOKS to me like a grammatical construct; I feel like sounds like ちゃ come up a lot when I’ve run into colloquial shortening? Feels like something that might be helpful to be told about. The さ might just be tossed in there? I don’t mean that to sound dismissive but it’s happened a lot as a… little interjection in people’s speech here, I think. Or that could be wrong too! Just want to spill out my thought process and show I’m trying.

I’m not doing much better with やっぱなして right after, heh.

Thanks, as always. Loving the manga, it grows on me more every week.

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I could see that, except that the – in Japanese elongates the previous sound as opposed to cutting it off, like in English, so I dunno if she is really being interrupted. I also don’t know that I have seen the さ particle in mid-sentence before, but that could be something that catches me off guard, like the mid-sentence よ does (in spite of having seen it a few times now).

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yeah i guess it’s more like her trailing off, さ can be used quasi mid sentence though pretty sure, it’s like a filler
http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar/sentence_ending#_and_sentence-ending_particles

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Ah, so it can. That makes sense. Gives me similar vibes to California valley girl speech, “And, like… so, like…”, and the…like. :stuck_out_tongue:

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By the way, if anyone hasn't looked at the boards at the end of some chapters (or even if you have), you may have noticed that the two sides have different king pieces.

Urushi uses 王 and Ayumu uses 玉. I don’t know much about shogi, but I believe I’ve read that the more skilled player is always white and goes first, meaning Urushi always uses 王.

Don’t let the shogi terms make it too difficult to work through the Japanese!

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yeah exactly haha, i dont know if you watch anime, but next time you do and a casual conversation happens, you’re very likely to hear it, also happens when a character is a bit annoyed and lets out that exasperated あのさ

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i am pretty sure its the てしまう, in casual form ちゃう, the definition on bunpro fits the situation if you want a quick definition, but it kinda doesn’t completely cover it, i like the video of cure dolly on it.
also not sure why its in the て-form, maybe to add the さ and sound more girly or something? hope someone else can clarify

oh yea, you were right with it being できる if the above mentioned isn’t completely wrong lol.
edit: now im second guessing myself guys, it is できる right???

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It’s できる+しまう->できてしまって->できちゃって

I have to double check but I’m pre sure 彼氏できる is like to get a boyfriend. So she’s like oh I can’t join the shogi club bc I [accidentally] got a boyfriend :nail_care:t2:

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(Parts of this will overlap what others have posted.)

You know how in English, if we’re doing something, we use the verb “do”? And if we are saying we are able to do something, we use the word “can”? (Related but off topic: And if we simply say we intend to do something, we use the word “will”?)

In Japanese, the generic verb for “do” is する. But when expressing that one “can do” (is able to do), the verb is できる. You may see a Japanese to English dictionary list a whole bunch of English translations for できる, but a lot of it will be context-dependent. At its core, できる is “can do”. (Or in the case of past tense, “was able to do”. English can be a bit wordy like that.)

Following this character’s できる is the ちゃう, which can also take on different meaning based on context. But the core meaning of ちゃう (which comes from て+しまう) is that an action (of the verb it’s attached to) has completed.

When you have 「verbてしまう」 (or 「verbちゃう」), as I understand it, it typically means something happened or took place without you intending for it to. In some contexts, it can be regrettable. But in this case it’s a happy event, as the girl was able to have gotten a boyfriend.

Here’s the Cure Dolly video @wanikani_94032 mentioned, which I think is a great video on the topic:

Using Cure Dolly’s “done” translation, you can say the girl done went and got herself a boyfriend.

Based on my reading experience, I would never figure it as the で particle. I can only see it as できる. In other words, you’ll get used to it over time. It just takes a lot of immersion, seeing many different sentences in many different contexts over time.

And just for fun, できる can be written in kanji as 出来る =D

I think やっぱ is short for やっぱり, as they’re used the same.

なし is similar to ない, but whereas ない is an adjective, なし works like a noun. This allows it to be followed by a particle such as に or で.

Edit: Extracurricular reading on the origin of なし.

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honestly i’ve gotten into the bad habit of basically not even really caring about the meaning of words like 出来る and especially 掛ける (check the list of definitions on jisho), i just kinda look at the noun or clause before it and see how it fits.

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Visual representation of someone reading a printed-out list of 掛ける English word translations.

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Thanks so much, everyone!

In Japanese, the generic verb for “do” is する. But when expressing that one “can do” (is able to do), the verb is できる. You may see a Japanese to English dictionary list a whole bunch of English translations for できる, but a lot of it will be context-dependent. At its core, できる is “can do”. (Or in the case of past tense, “was able to do”. English can be a bit wordy like that.)

I do actually know about the potential form! So I know できる is potential する, but since it gets used in so many ways, it seems like dictionaries and the like tend to treat it as its own special word rather than a form of another word. And I see how it doesn’t map on 1:1 for English uses of “to do.” Like, IIRC Genki teaches another meaning of it as “to come into existence” and shows how it can be used with new shops opening and the like. I suppose the ultimate goal is to just know when, say, a new place opens, できる is the natural word there, and in the meantime just recognize it’s kind of “able to do” but takes on a lot of contextual uses that hurt to try to directly translate. Might be in my best interests to back away from the multiple meaning side and just think that it is potential する but they use that in different contexts than we might.

typically means something happened or took place without you intending for it to. In some contexts, it can be regrettable.

So, てしまう is also something I’ve gone through in Genki, actually. And right when I did, they briefly warned about ちゃう and the じゃう and I immediately thought “well, I kind of see how that would happen, but it’s such a change that I’m definitely not gonna realize it when the time comes.” Here I am, at the moment I predicted, feeling like I saw the future. In my defense, the extra てさ bit and a verb that was slightly unclear (for someone new like me) is very much being thrown in the deep end for one of my first times seeing this in real material, haha.

It took me a while to understand when you might use it but I think I’m getting it? Genki starts by describing one use as “Carried out with determination” when talking about the sort of completely finished usage which seems… badly written? Maybe I’m still not quite getting it but it seems like an event is over and can’t be changed anymore. It’s often unintentional or regrettable, yet the words they start with plant such intention in the exact opposite way in your mind. Dunno. Gonna check out the Cure Dolly video, thanks.

And just for fun, できる can be written in kanji as 出来る =D

I wish it had been! I’m pretty sure I’m past those in WK and it would have removed some of my uncertainty, haha.

I think やっぱ is short for やっぱり, as they’re used the same.
なし is similar to ない, but whereas ない is an adjective, なし works like a noun. This allows it to be followed by a particle such as に or で.

So if I’m following this, she’s basically saying it was unexpected? I haven’t come across なし yet, or more likely have and didn’t know what to do with it, hah. So thank you very much! I’ll be reading that link soon for sure.

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できる is the potential form of する but it has other meanings too. In the non-fiction books we read in ABBC it came up a lot as meaning “to be made; to be built”.

When I read 彼氏ができる - to get a boyfriend - the できる part took on this “to be made” meaning to me. “A boyfriend is made” = “to get a boyfriend”.

You’ll get a lot of exposure to てしまう in reading. The video Christopher linked above is helpful, there’s another one I found helpful I’ve linked to below. The three main meanings I carry around in my head are: to do something and there is an element of regret; to something accidentally; to do something completely.

I actually read this one as expressing an element of regret. I don’t think she regrets that she got a boyfriend, but there is a sense of regret along with the apology that she can no longer come to the club. I also think Christopher’s suggestion of doing something completely makes sense as well - “I totally went and got a boyfriend!”

Video link

#45 てしまう / ちゃう How To Stop Sounding Like a Robot - YouTube

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