Umineko: When They Cry - Episode 4: Alliance of the Golden Witch - Visual Novel Informal Club

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Alright, here we go: I finished chapter 1 of episode 4, so I’ll kick off this thread!

The New Guest

So Ange is on the island now, but she can’t really interact with anyone in the normal world. She can interact with Battler and Beato in the other world, though.

I definitely had to look up the Menger sponge, lol. This VN is sure full of fun little thought experiments.

I thought it was interesting how concerned Beato got about Battler being too depressed to continue the game. The way she acted there once again made me feel like there was more truth to her “performance” last episode than she let on…

I’m also gathering from Ange’s explanation that she’s here to provide an alternate perspective on events so that we’re not just getting the obviously magical looking perspective?

Hansel and Gretel, huh…

We’re back! I remember 4 being noticeably longer than the past episodes. Looking at jpdb just now it seems it’s the longest in the whole series, with 8 kind of close. We’ll be in here a little while.

The New Guest

Nice little opening, I like the presentation of Angie watching her family disappear and get swallowed up into the island. Sad stuff. She’s doing a good job putting on a tough facade in the chess board dimension compared to how she actually feels.

Menger sponge I actually came across not too long ago in another VN because they absolutely love those kind of references. Steins;Gate, maybe? I’m not certain. People joke about how every VN will bring up Schrodinger’s cat at some point.

Ronove pranks and overly cheery Beatrice are pretty endearing honestly. Ryukishi clearly has too much fun writing goofy scenes of people playing around. If this was Higurashi they would’ve done that for an hour so he’s learned a little restraint :sweat_smile:

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Finished Ange and Maria and started The Future 12 Years Later, though I have no comments on the latter yet.

Ange and Maria

Interesting chapter. It’s nice that Ange has Maria for a companion of some sort, though it’s sad that of course Maria isn’t exactly there for real (unless she is? lol).

Rosa owns a clothing design company called アンチローザ, with the slogan “昨日までの自分が、許せない”. That’s honestly a bizarre name and a bizarre slogan…

We also met a new character, Sakutaro, the stuffed lion. Honestly, considering that we haven’t seen Sakutaro in the previous episodes, I was kind of expecting something bad to happen to him in one of these flashbacks. Did Maria just forget him or something when she came to the island for the family gathering?? It seems strange for her to be so attached to him and yet leave him behind for that trip.

Maria’s story about the witch and the angel agreeing to make one kid the target of all the bullies to protect the rest from illness and injury reminded me of The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas, haha. Really depressing story for a child to take solace in, though… :weary_face:

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Sounds like Daisoujou might not be able to get around to this episode for a while, and I’m not sure if @BadPlayer is still planning on joining us, so it might just be me flying solo for a bit? Well, I have no doubt that Daisoujou will be able to catch up super fast whenever he is feeling up to it again, so I’ll keep going for now.

Got slowed down a bit during this chapter anyway because the quantity of new vocab was higher.

The Future 12 Years Later

We have some more new characters! And also a new category added to the “characters” menu: there’s the human side, the witch side, and the Ange side.

The current boss of Eva’s company is Okonogi, who seems to be an interesting character. I’m not quite sure what to make of him. He and Eva seemed to have genuinely trusted each other, yet he’s also maybe sympathetic to Ange? I dunno. I’m kind of in Ange’s boat of not being able to trust him fully, no matter how things seem… He seems to be trying to thread the needle so that he helps Ange just enough to seem like he’s on her side, while also helping Kasumi enough that she won’t get too mad at him.

Kasumi is also quite an interesting piece of work. Very different from Kirie, though she shares some of Kirie’s cunning.

There’s also Amakusa, who seems to be an ally of Ange. Seems to be. I dunno, with that kind of private military background he has, it’s hard for me to feel like he’s trustworthy, either… I’m also not sure we can trust his claim that his was the car that was waiting in the underground parking lot. To me, that feels like one of those Schrödinger’s cat truths that can easily change depending on the circumstance. Like Okonogi could have very well tried to betray Ange and send her right to Kasumi’s car, in which case it would not be Amakusa’s car waiting for her down there, but since she never went down to the basement parking lot, it’ll forever be one of those sealed boxes that can hold either possibility.

You can definitely see a lot of examples of that concept of how love can change the truth in this episode, with a lot of differing possibilities depending on whether you read a character’s motivations as in good faith or bad faith at any given moment.

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Red Truth, Blue Truth

Alright, so the witch named 18 people and said whether they were alive or dead, and then she also declared that there were no more than 18 people on the island, but the two statements aren’t necessarily referring to the same people, so there’s a chance that one of the dead people is not actually on the island.

Battler (and Kirie) came to the conclusion that it has to be Kinzo. This would actually maybe solve one of the questions I’ve had since the beginning, which is my suspicion surrounding Kinzo’s death, because every single time, his body got burned in the boiler room.

Though, something that confuses me a bit here is that there still very much was a body in the incinerator. So presumably that body counts as one of the 18 people even if it’s not actually Kinzo. So I guess I don’t really see room for that slot to be occupied by the killer, unless they burned one of the other bodies that was already counted as dead. I think I had that theory way back in episode 1 or something? Haha.

Regarding Beato’s new restrictions on the red truth, this from Ange kind of took me by surprise because it was way more direct about the literal game mechanics than I was expecting:

「…それは、人間側が提示する"トリック説"、即ち復唱要求は必ず、そのゲーム内、つまりエピソード内に反論されなければならないという、魔女側の制約という認識でいいのかしら?」

I guess we should keep track of the times that Battler asks Beato to repeat something back in red and she doesn’t do it? Well, first up, he asked her to confirm that Kinzo was included among the 18 people on the island, and she wouldn’t do it.

Ange also proposes that if the human side has successfully proposed an explanation via humans and tricks for every mystery and the witch side cannot refute them, the human side may declare victory. Beato and Ange haggle over it a bit more and also add a clause where the witch side is given the opportunity to refute the explanations, but if no rebuttal is made within one minute, the humans can declare victory. The same rule also applies to the human side: they’ll be given one minute to refute the riddles, and if even a single unrefuted riddle remains, the witch side wins, and the game ends.

And the deadline (for explanations/rebuttals as well as Beato answering Battler’s requests to repeat things in red) is 12:01am on October 6.

Beato also granted Battler the ability to declare in blue when explaining her magical murders using human perpetrators and tricks. Beato is obligated to refute every line in blue with red before the end of the game. But anything he says in blue must be something that negates the existence of witches.

Okay, here’s Battler’s first blue truth: “右代宮金蔵はすでに死亡している。よって島の本当の人数は17人!そこに未知の人物Xが加わることで18人となっている。この人物Xの存在の仮定によって、17人全員にアリバイがあっても犯行は可能になるッ!!”

Also, just a random observation, but it’s interesting to me that Kirie sort of tends to parallel Battler’s own line of thinking in these episodes. She’s always just a little ahead of him. Even though she’s not his biological mom, it feels like he takes after her, haha.

Hmm, ok, random thought: What if it’s not Kinzo who’s already dead, but someone else? Like, say for instance, Gohda, who is only recently employed by the family? What if he isn’t who he says he is and is only masquerading as Gohda Toshiro??

This chapter leaves off with the siblings successfully bullying Krauss into trying to beg Kinzo to attend the meeting, and then Krauss somehow successfully talks him into actually doing it? That was a surprise to me. It’ll be the first time we see Kinzo at this meeting. Kinzo seems to have realized that the Ushiromiya name is really all he has that technically doesn’t belong to Beatrice, so he decided he actually does care about it. Or something.

That’ll be interesting to see…

Good progress – if there are no life catastrophes I’m hoping I can use the next readathon the way I’ve been and catch back up. Still dealing with some stuff but overall I’m feeling closer to normal. Looking forward to getting to read your thoughts.

Alright, the readathon was TOO successful and I read 125k characters :sweat_smile: . My brain is melting but for now I want to just check what you’ve been saying…

Responses

It’s SO weird right?

Yeah really good call with that connection. Really depressing to resign yourself to that but at least there’s the aspect where she recognizes bullying is just kind of shitty impulses from other people and has nothing to do with her, really. They’d find another target. Pretty much everything Maria does and thinks is pretty upsetting through this episode though…

Fun fact, for whatever reason Okonogi is a guy who recurs, with the same name but as different characters, through these VNs. In Higurashi (spoilers for that, IIRC you said you had seen the anime before?) he pretends to be an ally of one of the main characters but is ultimately a villain tricking her, dunno how much that’ll be related to his role here…

It definitely seems like Okonogi is trying too hard to sit in the middle and is just generally a slimy guy for it, though my intuition is that he’s telling the truth when talking to his employee about how stock ownership means it’ll be bad for him if Ange doesn’t hold onto the money herself. So he’s not willing to help her too openly for fear of reprisal from this seemingly powerful family, but he is ultimately alligned with her side more, for what that’s worth…

I have to make the very important observation that I think the blue used in the text is kind of pretty :sweat_smile: .

Yeah for sure, good point. I mean it makes sense because he said he learned his way of thinking about this stuff (turn the chessboard etc) from her. What I find interesting is that each episode the game is kind of constructed by Beatrice in some way… so she appears and does murders in what way she wants, but I wonder where the variation in the behavior of the “pieces” can come from? Because all we’ve seen from the island this episode is Kirie giving Battler a huge hint (well, if it can be trusted) at which point I have to wonder how much him seeing that is Beatrice’s will, if that makes sense?

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Missed some days because I had an insanely busy week, but I managed to catch up a little, and finished another chapter.

Ange’s Recollection

This might be the most depressing chapter so far… Going through Maria’s memory of that pajama party night was like getting stabbed very slowly and painfully with a rusty fork. I’m glad that Ange couldn’t hold back her reaction to that Rosa and Maria scene, though, because I was feeling similarly. It felt like Ange is the first person in this story to have an actual human reaction to Rosa’s treatment of Maria.

But first, I wanted to comment on something that you said in discord, Daisoujou, haha. You said: “Apparently 真実 is more subjective than 事実 being like verifiable objective reality, which is annoying because I’d probably guess the opposite given the nuance I’d expect of 真.”

Funnily enough, both of us had literally just read this portion of Umineko where this exact nuance came up, haha!

I went back through my texthooking page to grab the quote I remembered.

Here’s from the conversation between Maria and Ange:

「…私の日記には、こんなにも楽しくパジャマパーティの"事実"が記されているのに。…同じ"事実"も、異なる人間が観測すると、異なる姿になってしまうんだね」

ベルンカステルと、そんな話をしたことを思い出す。真実は不定形なもので、観測される度に姿を変えるもの。一つの真実は、その捉え方によって、…つまり人によって異なる真実となる。そして過去の真実は、未来の真実で塗りつぶされる…。

「真里亞はこの日記で、この夜の出来事を、とてもとても楽しかったと記した」

「…真里亞お姉ちゃんはこの夜の出来事を、とても幸せだったと記述した」

「なのに、日記を読んだ縁寿は、この夜の出来事を、とてもとても悲しかったと読んだ」

「…真里亞お姉ちゃんは幸せだと記述したのに、私はそうではないと読み解いた」

「やめて」

「…」

「これは、幸せな夜を記したものなの。…これが、この夜の"真実"。お願いだから、その幸せな真実を、…新しい、そして異なった真実で塗り潰さないで」

「…真里亞お姉ちゃんにはこれで、…幸せなの?」

「うん。幸せ。…だから、同じ境遇の時、幸せに感じられない縁寿が、可哀想」

…友達もなく、孤独な境遇は、今の私も当時の彼女も同じ。そして縁寿は、…孤独な真実を、孤独な真実のままに受け入れる。しかし彼女は、…孤独な真実を、幸せな真実に塗り替えた。右代宮真里亞は、悲しい真実を、…幸せに変えたのだ。そここそが、…私と真里亞お姉ちゃんの、唯一にしてあまりに大きな、…違い。そして、それを受け容れられないと思いつつ、…その力を羨む自分もいる。

More on topic, Beato turned Sakutaro into a catboy?? Or a lionboy, I suppose. I’ll be honest, I fully thought Maria’s imagination was the only thing animating him, haha. I should’ve had more faith…

Also, Maria got a new look!

Sakutaro (I guess it’s romanized Sakutarou?) has a character page now! It says he holds a decoration as a diplomat, and all witches, weapons, and furniture in the alliance, and even demons and divine spirits in contract with the alliance, are not permitted to take aim at him.

Which just begs the question of why he didn’t come with Maria to the island…

The VN is probably about to prove me wrong with that, though, and have him actually having been here this entire time as a spirit no one else could see or something.

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Finally had time to pick this up again after getting stuck in event planning hell for a few weeks :weary:.

Mariage Sorcière

So we’ve learned that there were apparently messages in a bottle that washed ashore that contained (seemingly) the entirety of the contents of previous episodes (or at least that’s what I gathered). They claimed to have been written by Maria but were in Beatrice’s handwriting. Hmm…

Also, Ange summoned her first 依り代, which was Mammon. Didn’t expect that! Apparently they had some sort of prior relationship? The characters list says: “Mammon is the piece of furniture who was the first to become Ange’s friend. She remained alongside her throughout her years of training, supporting her master constantly and greedily so that she could become a full-fledged witch.”

That’s unexpectedly sweet…

Though Mammon is being quite pushy here, and I’m a bit worried about Ange trying to fulfill her wish to reunite with her sisters before Ange has the proper power to summon them all safely :sweat_smile:.

Also, I feel like all of us playing this game are kind of participating in the Witch Hunt, huh :face_with_hand_over_mouth: .

Event planning hell sounds absolutely terrible; I hate that kind of planning even when it’s going well!

Mariage Sorcière

Maria-Beatrice confirmed. If anyone should get the title like Eva last time it’s gotta be her.

Interesting that they pick Mammon specifically. Up to this point besides little quips we’ve had little reason to think of the sisters as anything but basically an interchangeable group. Real mammon seems pretty specifically tied to material wealth and money, but the VN does mention (hopefully in this part :sweat_smile: ) stretching this definition beyond “greed” in the negative sense into strong desires that can also serve as a driving force for anything including good. I guess in that way it’s fitting for Ange given she’s intensely driven here out of desire for her family, a more normal life, etc.

Yeah that’s a cute little nod haha, there’s absolutely no way he didn’t have the actual readers in mind when talking about people around the world theorizing about the truth. These VNs always strive to engage you to make theories; Higurashi was always in direct conversation. In fact, between the episodes the characters would gather, in a way that felt like actors in a play on break or something, and discuss theories and sort of argue about what was going on within the story. It was charming.

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Still chugging along, though I missed a few more days this week.

Invitation to Fantasy

Here we actually got to see what appears to be the actual start of Mammon’s friendship with Ange, when Maria had Ange practice her magic by keeping Mammon manifested.

Okay, predictably, there’s kind of a shippy vibe here, though maybe that’s just me.

Then Lambdadelta showed up back in the swirly purple dream world. Uh oh.

We’ve now learned that this version of Ange is basically just a chess piece, so even if Battler wins, she won’t be the one who gets to reunite with her family. And also, Lambdadelta wants an eternal draw because she’s essentially trying to use Beato’s game to imprison Bernkastel. And she bribed Ange with an offer that she’ll get to go by her real identity (and stay with Battler in the witch’s game forever) if she agrees to join Lambdadelta?

Guess we’ll have to see what Ange’s choice is later…

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My World

Oof, this was another tough one to get through, geez… I don’t know if I even have specific comments, just Ange’s life is rough, and it was hard watching her throw away her friends like that, even if they did happen to just exist in her mind… I feel like in her boat, I’d just accept the magic interpretation because it would make life feel more worth living :sweat_smile: . I guess this explains why things between her and Mammon seemed a little complicated when she next encountered her.

My World

Yeah this whole episode is just brutal repeatedly. Reading a ton of it in a 24 hour marathon sure was an experience :sob:

Poor Ange really doesn’t have anything without the magic.

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Stopped right before finishing this chapter last time and then got busy again, so this took several days longer than expected… The heaviness of the material didn’t really help, lol.

Sakutaro

This whole chapter… oof. I don’t even know what to say. I guess this explains why Sakutaro wasn’t in the previous episodes…

This is I think the lowest we’ve ever seen Maria get. It feels awful seeing her get to such a point where she actually wants to hurt her mom (not that we can really blame her).

Quick reply

Yeahhh this chapter is just increasingly becoming us coming back a little shell shocked about what’s going on :smiling_face_with_tear:

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To the Island of the Witch

Okay, I am officially a bit confused on the timeline here… So, all of the stuff with Ange and Maria and Mammon and the rest happened in Ange’s mind when she was a teenager, right? After Maria was dead and Ange was reading Maria’s diary posthumously?

But it simultaneously happened to actually alive Maria, before she went to the island where she would then die? So she had the falling out with (teenager) Ange, where Ange also severely hurt Sakutaro, and then had the whole situation with Rosa happen right after that, which resulted in Sakutaro’s “death”, hence why he was not around for episodes 1-3?

If both of those things are true, I’m not exactly sure how to reconcile those facts into one coherent canon, lol. Maybe the only solution is to just accept that magic is real and witches are immortal and linear time and death don’t matter :joy_cat:.

Also, it seems like Ange is headed to the island in her own timeline (in addition to going back in time and catapulting herself into Battler’s chess game with Beatrice). And her main goal is to make it up to Maria by somehow restoring Sakutaro?

And Kasumi Sumadera is also coming to the island to cause trouble for Ange, in case we thought the whole witch murder mystery wasn’t enough excitement.

Nothing to do except enjoy the ride, I guess, haha. At least this stuff is a bit lighter than the last few chapters…

Oh excellent I think you’ve passed me up! Good job hanging in there with how busy I know you’ve been. I’ll have to consider if I’m going to do another readathon for it or not in the coming days.

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Officially passed 1 million characters!

Ushiromiya Kinzo

Wow, a lot sure happened in this chapter! Kinzo actually appeared, which the VN had me doubting for a bit, haha. And he basically disowned all of his children, but was talked into keeping the grandchildren in the line of succession. Then for the first time, we saw Kinzo directly summon some entities (including Chiester00, who is a new face) and proceed to have them kill the first six sacrifices, seemingly at random…

I was a bit surprised we actually saw this murder play out? It feels kind of obvious to me that this makes Kinzo the whole mastermind, then?? But there’s no way it can be that simple, right?

I’m also wondering if maybe the reason for Kinzo always dying in the incinerator is because he could climb in there himself… Like, what if his death in these episodes is actually a suicide because he was “chosen” to be a sacrifice and so he sacrificed himself in order to carry out the ritual?

Also, I can’t remember if I’ve mentioned this before or not, but my theory is that if anyone is impersonating a dead person, it’s actually Gohda, not Kinzo (I mean, the Kinzo theory is pretty dead in the water at this point, unless there’s something huge I’m missing). Gohda was hired by Krauss fairly recently and no one seems to have any real connection to him, so it would be relatively easy for him to impersonate someone, one would think.

Also, Gohda was one of the “fully destroyed face” corpses in the first episode, and he escaped this round of “half face” killings.

So maybe “Behold the sweetfish river, running through my beloved home of old” is Kumasawa pointing us toward Gohda (or rather the person impersonating him) with the mackerel dessert jokes (does Kumasawa know the truth about him?), and then “You who seek the Golden Land (黄金郷), follow its path downstream in search of the key. As you travel down to it, you will see a village (里)” refers to Gohda, who has 郷 in his name (which can mean hometown or village) and also the first syllable of “gold”/mora of "金"s reading in his name. Dunno what the “shore the two speak of” could refer to, though.

Got a full pepe silvia board going on here with all of these little details… I’m probably way off base, but it’s fun to speculate, haha.

Getting back to the actual story, I definitely noticed that Ronove seemed particularly concerned about Genji’s death. Aww…

Also, we have another major new character! Really good music when Gaap is introduced, honestly. I feel like getting a new song in this VN is rare these days, but this one is fun. It seems to be called “Happy Maria!(Instrumental)”.