Umineko: When They Cry - Episode 3: Banquet of the Golden Witch - Visual Novel Informal Club

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Everyone is welcome to read at their own pace and post any impressions, theories, or questions at any time within this thread. Those of us starting together may loosely informally stick together, but please feel free to chime in any time!

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  • Please use spoiler tags or collapse where needed and describe, indirectly, what point in the episode they are a spoiler for! We’re collapsing a lot of writing into one thread.
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  • Have fun, and do your best to interpret anything said with as much good faith as possible :slightly_smiling_face:
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Again, lots of images for episode 3 are just a giant spoiler for a character. Enjoy the picture in the original artstyle to go with the thread. Back when I was first getting into these I thought there was no way I’d be able to take them seriously with that art, but over time the ryukishi07 original style has gotten increasingly charming to me. Maybe one day I can reread Higurashi in Japanese and do it with the ham hands.

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Alright, here we go!

Finished the Prologue

  1. Wait a minute! That’s not Beatrice!!

  2. I think she might’ve just confirmed my prediction for how magic works in Umineko? It relies on belief, and if there is no belief in it, it can’t manifest.

Interesting start to this episode, in any case. I like it better than the last one so far. I assume our Beatrice is the little girl talking to the grey-haired “Beatrice” that we meet here, and that she eventually grew up and took her master’s name and became the evil witch we all know and love. But I dunno, I might be misunderstanding.

It’s interesting how the attainment of a level of power (the ability to resurrect anything) that should’ve brought eternal happiness instead brought her torment because it came with boredom. When I was an edgy teenager, I stirred up trouble at my family’s church by saying that I didn’t believe Heaven existed because happiness could only exist in contrast to other emotions and if you had only happiness forever, it would quickly fade and you wouldn’t be happy anymore, so therefore eternal happiness was impossible and thus Heaven could not exist. Seems like Beatrice’s experience aligns with my edgy teenage self’s theory lol. I probably would’ve gone nuts over this if I’d read it as a teenager.

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Finished Days as a Young Girl

Oof the sexism in this… It really makes me feel for Eva, and it makes me hate Krauss and Kinzo even more. Krauss totally uses it to get one up over her, too, probably because he has no power when it comes to his dad so he takes it out on someone he does have power over.

Also, we have another double!! This time of Eva’s younger self.

The part where her younger self told her that even though her own life was messed up by her father and Krauss, she’s trying to mess up her own son’s life by forcing her dreams on him, and “それが大人というものなの?”… Oof.

It’s also really sad that Eva plans to take advantage of Jessica being a woman to put George ahead of her in the inheritance race…

Also, considering how much of her own hopes that Eva has pinned on George, I can see why she doesn’t take the Shannon thing well at all, lol. But that is her own fault, giving up on achieving her own dream and putting it all on her son… If she wanted to get what she wanted, she should’ve found a way to do it on her own terms and not Kinzo’s. Now she’s just playing the patriarchy’s game.

Also, there are some recurring themes here about magic and belief:

I get the sense that child Eva is in fact telling her actually real things about magic…

Hmm, wait a second, the child version of Eva has blue eyes?? But Eva herself has purple eyes… Wonder what that’s all about. :thinking:

Okay, now I’m paying attention to the characters’ eyes, lol. Maria also has purple eyes. In the characters menu, Beatrice’s eyes are blue. Uh oh!

Just as I typed that, I got to the point where “Eva’s child self” welcomed her back home to the island. Uh oh!

Alright, I finished the chapter, so I’ll do an eye color check to see if there’s anything else worth noting.

Battler’s eyes are blue! Fascinating. Kinzo’s eye color is… not visible at the resolution I have the game at from the characters menu. The same is true of most of the other characters, so I guess I’ll have to wait until they reappear properly before I can check. I can see that Jessica’s eyes are also blue, though. No idea if this actually means anything or if it’s just significant in the case of Eva specifically, but I have my eye on things now :eye:.

It seems obvious that Eva was actually speaking to Beatrice and not her child self, but maybe the VN is swerving us here. Guess I’ll find out eventually.

It’s refreshing to have Eva as sort of the “protagonist” of this episode because as terrible as she is, her character is a lot more sympathetic than Rosa. I wonder if each episode is going to focus on one of the parents? Maybe we’re going to get all of the women first, and then their husbands for the last set of episodes?

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Nice progress! I think I’m going to be a little longer before I start up episode 3 – had two more clubs start at the beginning of November and I’m in the midst of too much already, but there’s a thing or two I’m trying to mostly focus on finishing to free up a little more attention. I’m sure I’ll be able to catch up so no worries anyway, just saying it since I might go quiet here briefly.

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Finished My Preparations Are Already Complete

It made me laugh when I moused over シーユーアゲイン with Yomitan and saw that it had a pixiv dictionary entry thanks to Umineko: “シーユーアゲインとは、同人ゲーム『うみねこのなく頃に』の1シーンに対するファンからの俗称。” Battler’s embarrassing moment lives on even in fans’ memories, lol.

It’s nice to see the focus on the cousins bonding for this scene, though the way they’re stressing that they’ll always believe in each other and get along seems kind of foreboding…

It kind of reminds me of my aunt’s funeral that I went to a few months ago. My dad was trying to ensure that I got my cousin’s contact information, and I realized that he was being so insistent because my dad and I both knew (though I’m not sure that my cousin knew. He certainly didn’t know that we knew, at least) that my cousin’s dad was suing my dad over the inheritance left by my grandpa, and I could tell that my dad was worrying that I might not be able to see my cousin ever again at any sort of family-arranged event like this, so he was hopeful that we could potentially connect up outside of family events so that we could still be in each other’s lives even if our parents never spoke to each other again… The scene with the cousins in this chapter of Umineko felt painfully similar to that.

Well, I hope it works out okay for the cousins in Umineko, and I hope it works out okay for me and my real-life cousins :pray:.

Omg, we have a new character! A demon butler who proceeded to immediately flirt with Battler in the kind of in-between meta world. He seems fun, lol.

Also, Beatrice told Battler that he’s giving in little by little, which is what has allowed her to summon more of her goons…

A big change this time around is that Eva has realized that if the letter is real, that could be her big ticket to win the inheritance and become the head of the family despite her gender, so now she’s insisting that it’s real rather than doubting its provenance.

So far, I’m liking this episode the best, I think.

Curious to see if the mackerel thing comes up again this time around or if that was just a red herring…

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Up to the end of Days as a Young Girl

What really stands out to me about the 壺 breaking scene is how the magic makes it “remember its past form” but after a little while it breaks again. That’s what happens to the Ushiromiyas, yeah? Does Beatrice have less power than she says? Can also be related to why she’s so insistent about belief given all the talk about magic coming from belief. Whatever the case, it feels like this is what’s happening to them. You can put Rudolph back together for a little while, and make Rudolph break a different way, but Rudolph still breaks in the end.

As for Eva’s past, yeah, they’re just laying the gender discrimination bare here. Could always see it lurking behind Eva’s character but oof, a whole lot of speeches about how women should support men only. Like you said there’s a very clear generational cycle here, where the ways Krauss and Kinzo managed to warp everything Eva wanted in her life is now causing her to basically make George an extension of herself. Just like I said about Rosa lashing out because of how she was treated, etc. We just haven’t seen as much of him, and I’m sure he has his own stuff going on, but it makes Rudolph appear so relatively well adjusted for now. I’m sure that’s all a show though.

Every person in this family has their own like patriarchal role and other bad things about them going on, but beyond that, every time we see Hideyoshi get a moment with Eva he seems to be really trying to be genuinely nice and supportive. Hope we don’t find out anything TOO bad about him. Maybe I need to move my murderer prediction to Hideyoshi purely on the basis that that would break my heart :sweat_smile: .

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All caught up!

My Preparations Are Already Complete

I remember liking this episode a lot, and yeah, so far so good. Love how quickly we’re getting to the point; the sudden appearance of Beatrice made me laugh. Actually quite a few things did, Eva’s バカ楼座 is mean but it’s said SO forcefully and suddenly. And then Hideyoshi going まままままままま. I like the way the room just absolutely explodes with energy this time when they read the letter, now that Eva is angrier than ever. I’m surprised she didn’t jump on this opportunity in the past, honestly. Anyway seems we’re gonna hear some variation on 死んじゃえば a lot.

Honestly I think I already like Ronove more than I remember liking him before. I get the feeling he benefits a lot from being read in Japanese, so much of how he talks is in that Japanese butler speak role language.

Interesting that Maria’s rose is such a constant. Also we’ll see where that’s going but the way Kyrie alone was able to seemingly actually talk to Maria at her level and nicely ask for details is refreshing to see.

Sorry again to hear about that strain in your family, and I hope it works out ok. I guess it does point to this VN hitting on some very real experiences. At least, as far as I’ve heard, no one died after that funeral, magically or otherwise, so you have that much going for you :folded_hands:

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Finished a chapter and started the next one. Don’t have much thoughts at this point but I did find one thing a bit funny:

Finished 20:00 The Witch's Written Challenge

Haha, Kirie figured out Beatrice perfectly lol. Flipping the chess board around seems like it worked out for her this time.

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The Witch's Written Challenge

Yeah, sure, totally. His smug “I’m failing on purpose you just don’t get it” makes me laugh.

I just want to say that I enjoy Natsuhi in this chapter. The contrast is nice between Kinzo’s real kids and her, where she’s married into this position in the family and is trying so hard to be the perfect Ushiromiya (which the others already learned was impossible to please Kinzo) that she might truly believe in all of this about how noble and great the family and Kinzo is.

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Finished 21:00 Possibility of a 19th Person and started Rosa and the Witch of the Forest

The big reveal here is that Rosa is convinced that she killed Beatrice (or led her to her death somehow?). It also happened when she was very young!

We see a bit of Beatrice’s past, and find out that she was created by Kinzo as a human created by a human, or rather it was “a cage made of flesh”. Beatrice tried and failed to escape, so Kinzo trapped her soul in essentially a baby (a “homunculus”) and raised her without any of her past memories, ostensibly as his daughter but likely, uh, having other intentions in mind for once she reached full adulthood…

Also, Ronove can also talk in red??

He confirmed that the hidden mansion in the woods is real, and that Beatrice’s story is from the year 1967.

I wonder if the child talking to “Beatrice” at the start was actually the homunculus Beatrice?

I had to stop reading when the setting went back to the dining room, but I’m curious to hear Rosa’s story. I’m assuming Beatrice enlisted Rosa as an accomplice to “kill” her in order to free her soul.

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Nice milestone thing for me – for this section I just didn’t bother texthooking. Was fine! I’m reading stuff as hard or harder with manual lookups by now. Just feels good to not go through the effort, even if it’s not really THAT much to do.

Also, these voice actors are everywhere. I started Octopath Traveler 0 yesterday and recognized Rudolph’s really distinctive voice the moment a character said his first line. Kyrie’s is also there, 田中 敦子 (Takana Atsuko), and through that I learned it’s her last role as she died last year :sob:

Same spot

Possibility of a 19th Person took me a while to get through because I think there we really see how ryukishi has a tendency to repeat himself sometimes. Felt like there was one point being made but Battler reflected on it for an hour, heh.

Beatrice’s backstory (at least what we’ve seen so far) has such a fable-like quality to it, I’m not sure what to make of it just yet. Kinzo creating a homunculus child feels a lot like all the talk of people being furniture? Especially since he gets his servants from his orphanage, I believe it was. Either way above all we see him obsessing over and trapping a woman (and maybe her child?) and… yeah… sometimes I think Kinzo might not be such a good guy!

Just when they were starting to “get along” in a sense, talking about their chess match, Battler was too insensitive about this messed up backstory. There are so many little inserted lines about women from his perspective, even after he makes her mad he thinks something about them being moody :grimacing: . He’s an Ushiromiya!

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Read a chunk more, but didn’t finish Rosa and the Witch of the Forest quite yet.

I had some thoughts, though!

Alright, so we got some answers! Rosa found her way to the hidden mansion as a child, met Beatrice, who had no memories of her real self, helped her sneak out, then accidentally led her to her death by telling her to climb down the steep cliff side. Beatrice’s body definitely died (she said it in red!), thus freeing her trapped soul. Kinzo then used the shrine to trap her spirit on the island while she gathered her strength to regenerate her body.

And that’s as far as I’ve gotten, lol

I was taken with the zoo talk. It reminded me a lot of Shannon’s experience with the aquarium…

I feel like we have a much better understanding of the dynamic between Beatrice and Kinzo now. Kinzo loves her, but it isn’t mutual. And as much as he loves her, he also understands that she’s very powerful and likely will want payback for trapping her, hence stuff like warding his study and all of that. I suppose that’s also probably why he refuses to leave it once everything starts to go down, because he knows that if he does, she’ll probably get him.

Another random thought was that this chapter reminded me a lot of the epitaph. I wonder if it’s from Beatrice’s perspective, and the hidden mansion is her “beloved home of old”? And some path from there leads to the “key”? No clue about the “village” yet, though. The “shore the two speak of” feels like it’s probably the ocean, because that certainly is a shore that many pairs of characters have spent a lot of time talking about… But I dunno, that’s so vague, it’s probably not it.

I left off right after Ronove reappeared and the shrine conversation started. Dunno if we’ll get more reveals/information or not.

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Same spot again!

I don’t have a ton to say, you pretty much summed it all up for this section, but I did find this line interesting with how very insistent the VN is about hammering in the connection of 無限 with Beatrice’s powers.

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Finished Rosa and the Witch of the Forest, and started 0:00 The Beginning of the Ritual

Well, we have confirmed no more than 19 people on the island, which throws a bit of a wrench in Battler’s plans.

Also, Kinzo apparently basically spontaneously combusted?? That was our first time seeing one of the night one deaths actually happen. I wonder what took down the wards protecting his study… I suppose probably whoever our accomplice is. It’s fascinating to me that the two times Kinzo has died so far, he burned both times. I wonder if that means something.

Ronove and Genji have kind of a fun dynamic. It’s interesting that Ronove knew Shannon but not Kanon yet.

Kinzo’s strategy of redrawing tarot cards is interesting, lol. Seems like it didn’t exactly go so well for him this time, though… Sometimes you really can’t escape your fate.

Incidentally, I had a funny tarot experience today with one of those “bad cards” haha.

I woke up with terrible back and neck pain, then went to do my daily tarot card drawing. I pulled a card and it was the Ten of Swords. It was just like, “ok, tell me something I don’t already know??”

But unlike Kinzo, I’m not a loser who redraws cards until I get a good one, so I’m stuck with the back pain card today whether I like it or not… Somehow I don’t think I could fix that problem even if I drew cards until I got The Sun or something, though.

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Ok, so I read this in the Winter Readathon, and despite my lack of confidence that I’d manage, pushed myself for 9 hours of reading and made it to 100k characters. So I have jumped ahead a little :sweat_smile:

Responses

Yeah Shannon has been there longer so I guess that explains it, but leads naturally into the question of what brought them together in the past. Ronove is a demon working for Beatrice but as far as we know Shannon didn’t meet her previously when Kinzo was doing… whatever with Beatrice in the past. Genji of course would’ve.

I love how your tarot card looks. I’ve thought before it’d be fun to get a reading if I ever found myself in that situation, but I’m not sure how I would haha. I just find them aesthetically really appealing.

I’m going to struggle to remember everything given the massive volume of Umineko I read all at once. I would’ve taken more proper note of chapter names and things I wanted to mention, but given the readathon concept I was trying to do as much as quickly as I could at the expense of everything else, so I guess to be safe I’ll just mark where I am right now and ramble about what comes to mind. I’ll have to refer to your posts later which’ll probably job my memory, too.

Someone in the middle of Announcement of Sacrifices

This time they’re very systematically taking out all servants. Wealth disparity presents itself again. Since Beatrice mostly seems to want to amuse herself with people’s suffering, she sets up a deal to make Kanon suffer. It feels like all of Beatrice’s deals are kind of scams meants to ultimately torment you, which is interesting considering the whole backstory is built on the Beatrice and Kinzo deal. I mean, it’s not like he seems to be having a good time as he wails about her, so I guess that tracks. The way the servants get gently, nicely killed is interesting. I wonder if there’s more to that.

Kumasawa becoming witch is really funny; I love that compared to how sad and scared she’s been before. The giant battle with all its mythological names and chuuni descriptions was wearing me out reading in bulk like this. Mostly what I’m interested in is how we more clearly see the on-board and off-board separation, former Beatrice loses and dies here so she hangs out with meta-Battler and becomes his assistant. She seems… nice. Also Beatrice literally does the お前はもう死んでる thing lol. Here is where I can see what you meant about the episode being written to deal with how seeing magic makes it hard to engage with the idea of no magic. Feels like here we get this straight up explanation that we’re going to be shown things from a perspective, watch them, but that doesn’t necessarily make them real. The magic is happening just like the CRT gremlins are. A hypothetical method that only needs to match the same final outcome, which is big for how we interpret anything that happens now.

I’ve always heard people joke that every VN has Schrodingers Cat and every VN has a line about a collapsing like a puppet with its strings cut, and both of those happen close together here lol.

IIRC the point Beatrice wouldn’t repeat was that everyone was killed, but she changes it to no suicides. Very interesting :eyes: Then Ronove makes her back off from continuing.

I’ve been curious to see this line in Japanese lol, it’s notorious in the English translation.

I mean… credit to them, it works.

Then we get into epitaph solving and here I wish I wasn’t pushing myself to read through quickly, haha. I’m going to keep thinking about it from here cause it feels like we got big hints. No idea what’s such a big deal about 黄金郷 becoming 黄金の郷 at the end, but Rosa makes it sound like if she hadn’t pointed that out Eva wouldn’t have solved it… other important points are figuring out what the river represents, and the sweetfish could be something else, but maybe their behavior, going out to the ocean and coming back to lay eggs is important? This stuff is still really hard for me but they basically spelled out the process, finding that stuff then removing parts.

Funny how, when they actually try, multiple of them can semi-independently solve it.

I just like this image a lot. I kind of love Eva Witch. She’s horrible, and I keep bringing up how entertained I am by horrible characters, but that’s some of the fun of fiction. Eva’s selfish side that thinks she’s better than the rest of the family for how hard she works gets to run over them now. She has the worst laugh in the world, I love how it gets progressively more shrill and offputting. It’s a really fun, unexpected development. This thing just keeps growing with more characters taking over the narrative.

Speaking of, Ronove is fully Battler’s opponent now that he told Beatrice off. I’ve really liked seeing how her character changes, she’s putting on a bit of a show for Battler but at the same time overdoing it and also being sort of childish around her mentor. Now she’s awkwardly trying to give people nice peaceful deaths so they can play their game for real.

Jesus I thought it was just funny that Rudolph would jump straight to that, a little joke about him being shitty, and was not at all prepared for Rosa to say yes and for that to just actually be a thing she does regularly. :grimacing:

I’m at a loss for who could’ve killed Rosa and Maria how. But it is sad seeing Beatrice apologize to Maria, and reminds me that she never killed her in the past two games. She definitely actually just likes Maria a lot. I’m glad someone is being nice to Maria.

Probably a lot more that I could say but I still finished this recently, wanted to get out as many scattered thoughts as I could before just completely resting and putting it out of my mind for a bit to relax cause I’m really fatigued now but my thoughts are racing about it. Will just end by sharing my love for happy Hideyoshi with a gun

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Response

They’re a lot of fun! I recommend getting yourself a Rider-Waite-Smith deck at some point and just playing around with doing readings for yourself (the RWS deck is the most iconic one and most of the others follow its imagery at least somewhat). I like daily single card readings because they’re simple and that’s about how much energy I have for anything these days, but a 3-card spread is pretty easy, too, and from there it’s not too hard to get into the more complicated ones.

I’ve had I think… three? tarot card readings done for me in person. Two of them were by friends, and one was by a professional. The first happened in the laundry room while I lived in the dorms in undergrad, hahaha. I’ve done tarot readings for a few friends online, but I don’t think I’ve had the chance yet to do one in person myself. Maybe someday.

I bought a small pastel deck specifically to match the card holder I had bought with the intent to use it for daily readings, since it’s convenient for holding a single card on my desk.

Actually, funnily enough, the day after I said this…

Guess which card I ended up drawing for my next daily reading??

Yep, you guessed it, I literally drew The Sun the morning after making that post. It was reversed, but, well, still! Burst out laughing when I saw it. Tarot does have an uncanny sense of irony sometimes…

The Sun is one of the most universally positive cards (and the Ten of Swords is, uh, not!), though it’s less positive when reversed, haha.

Finished The Beginning of the Ritual and started Madam Beatrice

The scene where Genji basically mercy killed Shannon and then Kanon (and got mercy-killed himself by Ronove) was interesting and also sad…

Madam Beatrice threw some pretty big curveballs. Kumasawa was Beatrice’s old master?? I’m currently unclear on whether Master Beatrice was Kumasawa the whole time or if she was merely temporarily disguised as her during this scene.

I stopped reading in the middle of the fight scene in the rose garden, and I’ll be honest, I have absolutely no idea what’s going on, hahaha. Just along for the ride for this one!

It’s interesting to me that we haven’t seen Madam Beatrice’s eyes. I wonder if that’s significant at all? The stuff with Eva has now got me obsessively paying attention to people’s eyes…

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Yeah that fight scene you’re on now is what I had in mind when I was telling you there’s a difficulty jump, haha. It’s nothing truly ridiculous in difficulty but when I was trying to read as much as I could at once that part was pretty far from comfortable, unhindered reading too.

I have to admit most of my knowledge of tarot is warped impressions from their effects in The Binding of Isaac haha, but considering The Sun is super powerful there it did help give me the right feelings on that one at least! The Tower is super annoying.

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Finished 0:21 Madam Beatrice and started 6:00 Virgilia

Okay, I’m kind of a bit in Battler’s boat here, not really knowing any other possible explanation for the giant magic battle… Well, if he really wanted to, I suppose he could resort to the lazy storytelling tropes (drugs, hallucinations, “it was all just a dream”, etc.).

The setup for the morning’s murder is already kind of interesting, though. All the parents were in the room together, so they all have alibis (except if anyone has an evil double or something). And all the servants (plus Kinzo) are presumably the dead bodies they’re about to find, though we never actually saw Kumasawa die. Which leaves the children and Nanjo as the only possible suspects? Well, and Beatrice, but y’know…

And now we have five separate locked room situations, though they did just bust into the parlor through the window and found Shannon, so theoretically she’s got a key or something on her, though maybe the murderer took that away, lol.

I left off when Battler started talking to Madam Beatrice in the garden. In his mind.

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Got a bit delayed, but I finished Virgilia and barely started 7:00 Skirmish

Had a really funny moment during this when I was trying to figure out the name ワルギリア, so I consulted the character list to see how they were romanizing it, and in the process I saw the chapter name and was just like “…oh”.

Interesting that Battler has an ally in Virgilia, a witch, though… Wonder how long that will last? Will he reach a point where he’s forced to deny her existence, too?

Also, I’m fascinated by the fact that there are more guns in this episode. If I recall correctly, in the past two, there was just one single gun owned by Kinzo? Now he has a collection of them, with four in total.

This time around, Krauss, Eva, Rudolph, and Rosa got them. Rosa’s second time with the gun… I remember how well that worked out last time…

I feel like ownership of the gun sort of signifies the adult with the power in any given episode, but I guess we’ll see how that goes in this one when there aren’t any servants left for any of them to suspect, and it’s likely going to come down to the suspect being one of them (it’s either that or the children)…

Also, speaking of Virgilia, I found out from a friend that she’s apparently named after Virgil (Publius Vergilius Maro, which explains why she actually first called herself “ワルギリアス” before correcting it to “ワルギリア”). Virgil and Beatrice are both characters in Dante’s Inferno, hence the use of those names.

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