Teasing Master Takagi-san 😝 ・ Volume 1, chapter 3

[MrGeneric]

I’ll answer what I can based on what I know. If somebody else corrects me, definitely take their word over mine though. Grammar is still a new wheelhouse for me.

Pg. 2

@Abigael

(Q: ありません → lit. “It doesn’t exist”. Is it common to use it to say “it’s nothing”?)

It is, but in conjunction with なんでも. By my understanding, one of なんでも 's meanings is “anything”, so なんでもありません is literally “anything doesn’t exist.”

“It’s nothing,” is how we would say that in English, though. You’ll also see it as なんでもない, since ない is the casual form of ありません.

@Abigael

(Q: What’s the texture added by changing part of the verb to katakana here? 向 is a fairly common kanji, so why katakana over that kanji?)

So, I could be wrong, but my understanding is that katakana can often be used for emphasis in much the same way we use italics or bold print in English. I think that was what this was supposed to represent. I also think the translation you have there is off. I liked the interpretation given by @omk3 on post 14 of this discussion thread (how do we link, y’all, just realised I’m not sure how, hahah), since they worded it better than I could, I’ll point you there.

Pg. 4

@Abigael

(Q: Having trouble placing でも here. If it has the meaning of “but” I’d expect both halves to hold different tones. Yet the literal translation I have is more like “Practicing faces, but you’re going at it aren’t you?” which doesn’t make much sense)

So, でも has multiple uses. In this case, I think it’s meant to mean “or something”, as opposed to “but”.

“Are you practicing your faces/poses or something?”

Is how I interpreted the sentence.

This page explains uses of でも fairly well: How to use でも ( = demo) – Maggie Sensei

The rest of those questions I’m too foggy on to give a proper explanation for, so I will leave those to more experienced folks than me!

[MrGeneric]

Ohp, beat me to it!

[MrGeneric]

Pg. 5

@Abigael

(Q: Are こんな and なんて doing the same role in the sentence, repeating “something like this”?)

Somehow I missed this one on first pass through your post, but I’m gonna try my hand at explaining this one too. Somebody else might go more in-depth, but I don’t think that they are doubling up. I think こんな is being used to mean “something like this” (in this case, the talent), whereas なんて is being used to emphasize the sense of surprise at having that talent. I read something about that being one of the uses of なんて following a verb or a noun. (My brain auto-filled end of a sentence here, which was not accurate. My apologies.) I’ll link you to the maggiesensei page that talks about it for more detail: How to use なんて ( = nante) – Maggie Sensei

Also, for what it’s worth, I find that site really useful for all sorts of grammar bits and bobs. I usually check there first if I’m confused on something!

[Abigael]

@MrGeneric

Also, for what it’s worth, I find that site really useful for all sorts of grammar bits and bobs. I usually check there first if I’m confused on something!

Thanks for the link. I’ve stumbled on MaggieSensei a few time, but the presentation was always hard to parse personally. The combination of colors, the spread out text, and the lack of concise recaps made it a bit overwhelming each time I happened upon their pages. I’ll give it another shot though thanks to your recommendation.

[MrGeneric]

I can totally understand the site being a bit of sensory overload. I tend to just skim the points until I find what my intuition is pointing me towards to begin with and then read that part more closely. I don’t think I have ever sat down and read a full page of that site in-depth. Just the spark notes, so to speak. It’s just too much information all at once, otherwise. Of course, that also means it’s of limited use for me if I don’t have some semblance of “maybe it’s this???” before checking the page.

[2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz]

@Abigael

ところでさ、西片ってやけに高木さんと仲いいよな。
By the way, about you, you’re awfully close to Takagi-san, aren’t you. (Q: I thought it was custom to use がる when speaking of people’s feelings, so as to respect other people’s inner thoughts. Is this not the same for relationships? Or is Nakai being pretty blunt here?)

Yes, がる is used to speak of someone’s feelings, but there are two factors in play here that make it strange to use がる.

(A) がる is used mostly with adjectives that express a psychological state (afraid, scared, wanting, etc). 中いい is not really considered a psychological state - because it’s not something that describes the person’s feelings, but how people interact with each other.

(B) がる is rarely used when you are talking to the person whose feelings you want to talk about; it’s used generally when talking about some third person, who’s usually not present or not directly involved in the conversation. Since Nakai is talking to Nishikata, he can ask directly how he feels; there’s little point in using がる.

[ChristopherFritz]

@Abigael

Q: ありません → lit. “It doesn’t exist”. Is it common to use it to say “it’s nothing”?

You’ll see いる, ある, and ない quite a bit over time, and they won’t feel quite right compared with English. This is one of those areas where we have fairly direct English translations for the words, but the concepts come to you with exposure, as you encounter them in various contexts, situations, and usages.

@Abigael

What’s the texture added by changing part of the verb to katakana here? 向 is a fairly common kanji, so why katakana over that kanji?

Some words get used with katakana often, though I don’t know why.

Here are some web search results for different ways of writing the expression in question:

Writing	Results
“向きになる”	33,800,000
“むきになる”	1,370,000
“ムキになる”	1,160,000

You can see that while the kanji version is more common, the katakana version has almost equal favor with the hiragana version.

Aside from that, you’ll find different writers make different usage of katakana, and it’s sometimes difficult trying to derive patterns out of it. I think Sailormoon mangaka Naoko Takeuchi never met a word she couldn’t katakana. (And just when you think you’ve got her katakana usage down, she uses hiragana for an English word.)

@Abigael

I’m just getting started. (Q: Not sure who’s the subject here. I went with Takagi.)

I believe this usage of ムキになる is the “to get worked up” meaning, with Nishikata being the one who did so.

@MrGeneric

(how do we link, y’all, just realised I’m not sure how, hahah), since they worded it better than I could, I’ll point you there.

If you’re on a computer with a mouse, you can right-click on the timestamp at the top-right corner of the post and copy that for the link to paste into your comment.

Another option is to take the URL from the URL bar, and change the number after the last / to be the post number, and copy and paste that.

@Abigael

ブフ
(Boo! Or another scary onomatopoeia maybe.)

This one’s Naka’i stifling a laugh.

@Abigael

I’ve stumbled on MaggieSensei a few time, but the presentation was always hard to parse personally. The combination of colors, the spread out text,

Did you miss out last 1990’s, early 2000’s Internet? The farther we get from it, the more the herd immunity things out. I wonder if there’s any sort of inoculation available for it. (Myself, I like the throw-back style of the site; much nostalgia! =D )

[Shannon-8]

Off-topic to Sinagu...

@sinagu

off topic: did any of you more knowledgeable people ever consider compiling a ‘learning version’ and approaching the/a publisher with it? there’s some language learners’ books out there, so why not make use of all the hard work going into explaining things here? just an idea. it’s still going to be a lot of work.

YES!!! I daydream about being the CEO of this spin-off company

[shuly]

今 終わりました。 良かったです。

ch4 vocab is all filled in enjoy…

[msbrown]

Question on page 11:

「高木さんがわらって 先生に怒られさえ すればオレは！！」

My interpretation is “Takagi-san (will) laugh and teacher will get mad if so.” But I’m not sure how 「オレは」 at the very end fits in. A subject at the end of the sentence maybe?

Edit: It seems like a verb is left out with Nishikata as the subject? That would explain は as the topic marker at the very end.

[apcwani]

Let’s do another one of the internal monologues

Page 14

「次に田辺先生を怒らせたら本当にマズい。。。とにかくこの授業の間は高木さんに関わらないようにしないと。。。」
田辺先生を怒らせたら | I believe the verb here is past conditional causative, and therefore should read if Tanabe-sensei gets angry
本当にマズい | really bad
この授業の間 | this class (the time period of)
高木さんに関わらない | Takagi won’t be affected
ようにしない | surely

Putting it all together, I believe you end up with: The next time Tanabe-sensei gets angry (this class) it’ll be really bad… but I’m sure Takagi won’t be affected.

Is this the case? I’m assuming the the 次 is applying to the ‘gets angry’ but I’m not quite sure

Page 15

「やっとこっち向いた。」
I’m assuming this means 'look over here’ but I can’t find a definition for やっと that works

[ChristopherFritz]

Just a few thoughts:

@apcwani

Page 14

and therefore should read if Tanabe-sensei gets angry

Be sure to take note of the を here, and don’t forget you mentioned there’s a causative.

The teacher in this case is the object, not the subject. Rather than the teacher getting angry, it’s causing the teacher to get angry.

For the second half, 「この授業の間」 is the topic, and 「高木さんに関わらないようにしないと…」 is a comment being made about the topic. Note that Takagi has the particle に, so she isn’t the subject here.

@apcwani

Page 15

「やっとこっち向いた。」
I’m assuming this means 'look over here’ but I can’t find a definition for やっと that works

The た makes the action completed (past tense), so the verb is more like “looked over here”. Looked at that way, does the やっと fit in any better?

[omk3]

@apcwani

「次に田辺先生を怒らせたら本当にマズい。。。とにかくこの授業の間は高木さんに関わらないようにしないと。。。」

ようにする would mean “make sure to”
ようにしないと seems like another one of these incomplete phrases, where the consequence after と is implied and therefore omitted. It seems to mean “if I don’t make sure to…, it’s bad”, or more simply, “I have to make sure to…”.
As @ChristopherFritz pointed out, Takagi isn’t the subject in this sentence.
My translation of 高木さんに関わらないようにしないと: “I have to make sure I won’t be affected by Takagi”.

[Jiell]

@ChristopherFritz

Note that Takagi has the particle に, so she isn’t the subject here.

@omk3

As @ChristopherFritz pointed out, Takagi isn’t the subject in this sentence.

When I read it, I interpreted it the same way as you. When I looked it up just now, I saw on Jisho this example sentence:

ああいう行動は君の名誉にかかわる。

with the translation:

That kind of behaviour affects your honour.

So here, the thing that’s affected, honour, is marked with に.
The other example sentences seem to follow the same pattern.
Does anyone know what’s up with that?
Or am I missing something really simply

[ChristopherFritz]

@Jiell_1

So here, the thing that’s affected, honour, is marked with に.

Here's how I mentally break down the sample sentence.

First, I separate the topic and the comment. (The topic is the part that ends in は, and the comment is what comes after.)

Topic: 「ああいう行動」

Comment: 「君の名誉にかかわる」

The topic simply tells what we’re talking about (essentially the context of the conversation), so the real content is in the comment.

For every comment, there is a subject. The subject is who or what is doing the action of the verb. But if the subject is clear from context, it doesn’t need to be stated. I’ll use ∅ to fill in for the unspoken subject:

「∅が君の名誉にかかわる」

“∅ affects your honor.”

So, what is the subject? It’s unspoken because it’s known from context. But we only have one sentence. That means the entire context available to us is what’s in the sentence. That’s where the topic helps, as it establishes context for the comment.

The topic is 「ああいう行動」. That’s what’s being talked about. That’s what the comment is about. And in some cases, the subject and the topic are the same thing. That may be the case here:

「ああいう行動は ● ああいう行動が ● 君の名誉にかかわる。」

But this would be redundant to say, so the subject is left unspoken:

「ああいう行動は君の名誉にかかわる。」

Note that this is not always the case when a subject is left unspoken! In many cases, the unspoken subject is not the topic, but is clear from context such as the prior sentences in a conversation.

[omk3]

Good question! In fact, it seems 関わる is intransitive, not passive as I first regarded it, so the person marked by に wouldn’t be the doer. I searched for に関わる and it seems it’s a N2 grammar point (and we’re supposed to be absolute beginners here), and it’s not translated as affect, but as to relate to, have to do with. So jisho’s example sentence would be “That kind of behaviour is related to your honour” (affects it, by extension), and our sentence would be I have to make sure I have nothing to do with Takagi. I think. It’s hard to translate with only dictionary definitions, there’s so many nuances we’re missing.

[Jiell]

@ChristopherFritz

「∅が君の名誉にかかわる」

“∅ affects your honor.”

My problem was rather, that かかわる is listed as intransitive, which would mean that ∅, as the subject, is being affected. or, at the very least is not actively affecting honor.
So while the verb is listed as intransitive, it is being translated as transitive.

I also thought about は not marking the subject but… in the translation the thing doing the かかわる is honor, which is marked with に, so…

[Jiell]

Ooh good find. Bunpro has it listed as a grammar point, so I will be reading a bit about that.

I am just glad that we figured this out - this was seriously making me doubt my understanding of transitive and intransitive verbs

(btw when I was thinking about those sentences on jisho, I also went “wait… are any of these passive, and that’s somehow it??” And I ended up going over passive and negatives again and again while hoping to make sense of this )

In case anyone else wants to read about this, it is covered by wasabi as “Targets of Relation”

[omk3]

I’m enjoying myself immensely trying to figure out these things, it feels less like learning and more like detective work - yet I’m definitely learning.

More details about my thought process

So, at first, because of the “affect” translation, I mistakenly thought かかわる was a passive verb (it seems there’s some controversy over the term, but I won’t let that affect me).

A passive verb sentence works like this:

• Xは Yに 〜られる。
• X is 〜ed by Y.

So in our sentence that would make Takagi the doer (Y). The translation works just fine, but in Jisho’s example sentence it doesn’t. The honor can’t be the doer that affects anything.

So then it dawned on me that it’s just intransitive, not passive.
Intransitive basically means it doesn’t take a direct object, no を。But it can still affect things with に。Now, if we keep the “affect” translation, a transitive verb in English, this changes the meaning completely. Suddenly Takagi is the object, however indirect. It’s the “have to do with” translation that put everything in its place. This is an intransitive structure in English too, so it works in a similar way.

Those pesky bilingual dictionaries, so helpful yet so confusing. A Japanese-to-Japanese dictionary (or years of experience with the language) would probably be more helpful, but then I’d need a dictionary to read that, so…

[Jiell]

I actually did look it up in a Japanese-to-Japanese dictionary, but since I didn’t understand the explanation, I decided to just ask here in the thread
Thanks again for the help!

@omk3

but I won’t let that affect me

I see what you did there