Teasing Master Takagi-san 😝 ・ Volume 1, chapter 1

[SoulStealerShuly]

so this is great that people have moved things to a separate bookclub forum but now I wonder…not that everyone is malicious …

don’t wanna be a debbie downer…

but with them being indexed (the vocab lists are publicly editable)… so it wouldn’t take much for someone to go and wipe them out if they felt like it… (while this could happen now)…it’s more likely with the forums being in the public index…

maybe it’s not a real concern but if it were me… I’d be so inclined to have the actual bookclubs not indexed (in general)… or maybe there’s a better way of doing the vocab instead of google sheets…but want to point this out before someone evil comes along and decides to ruin all the great work that has been built up til now …

[ChristopherFritz]

@SoulStealerShuly

but with them being indexed

They already were being indexed before:

(Seen here, Google’s cache of when it was in the Reading category.)

So, no change there. It’s always been a potential issue!

The benefit is that people can find the discussions via search engines.

The problem is that the spreadsheets are always at risk.

Edit: Google Sheets have a version history can anyone can access:

But if I maliciously restore to the oldest version, can someone fix it by restoring from a later version? I’m not going to test to find out!

[ChristopherFritz]

@anon99047008

@ChristopherFritz, what are your thoughts?

Some things are best learned through immersion.

The end.

 

 

 

Okay, maybe you want more than that…

I’m sort of in this camp:

@anon99047008

I kinda shrugged and just decided it was one of those quirks where Japanese expresses something differently than English.

But let’s see how it’s handled in some other manga, to compare.

In this scene from the manga Flying Witch, Kei is following a map his cousin drew for him. He notices that there’s something written on the back of the paper.

「裏(うら)に何(なに)か書(か)いてる」

Even though the person who drew the map is a witch, the message isn’t in the process of being written. Perhaps we can say it’s in the state of being written in that it exists as written? I don’t know if that really makes much sense, though =P

Disregard that this is in English. The Japanese version doesn’t have an official digital release for me to use.

In this scene, a star-gazing trip is being planned. Ena asks if …well, you can see in the screenshot. In the Japanese version, she says:

「これに書(か)いてる星座(せいざ)とか全部(ぜんぶ)見(み)えますか？」

As we can imagine, the contents of the book aren’t actively being written.

From these examples, I think it’s a matter of the (unstated) subject.

If the subject is a person, 書(か)いている means the person is actively writing.

If the subject is what is written, 書(か)いている means the subject is existing as being written.

[Arzar33]

ん？裏に何か書いてる
これに書いてる星座とか全部見みえますか？

It’s a little bit different though, In those examples 書いてる = 書いてある (something is written, and it was not written by the speaker)

But in 書いてるのか!? 書いてる = 書いている I have written it!?

[ChristopherFritz]

I had also wondered if it might be 書(か)いてある for Nishikata’s dialogue, but wasn’t certain. “Is something written? Did I write something?”

How do you distinguish between 書(か)いてる being いる or ある here, as subjects are not stated? All the comic examples are 〜てる.

I also meant to include consideration of 〜てある for the other examples when writing my prior comment but forgot to, so I’m glad you brought it up!

[anon99047008]

Can you even drop the あ like that?

And that いる example still uses “written,” which is the point of confusion…

(by the way, not intending to come off rude; I’m just surprised because I haven’t seen てある drop the あ before)

[ChristopherFritz]

I went looking for some more examples, as a matter of curiosity.

「なにが書いてある」

「文字が書いてある」

「…って書いてる」

Not that I’ve figured anything concrete from these!

[anon99047008]

Yeah, I guess my confusion with the ～てある as an option (while I do like that it seems to solve the grammatical issue at hand), is that I’ve never seen anything to suggest that ～てる can be a contraction for that. All sources point to ～てる exclusively being a contraction for ～ている, including Wiktionary, which is usually pretty good at listing multiple options.

[mariodesu]

@anon99047008

This is a case of Japanese and English expressing something differently, I think. 書いている is “writing”, and English also has that present continuous form, but we can only use it one way: currently writing. It feels like Japanese also turns around sometimes and uses that form in a way that doesn’t make sense in English, despite 書かれている being the form I might expect.

I get what you mean, when I read you translation I suspected you were providing it with this in mind. The present continuous has a… wider use in Japanese (can we say like this?)

@anon99047008

The unfortunate thing is that I can’t really defend the translation except to say that I literally can’t express it in English in any other way than “written,” and that it fits the context to a T

It’s not really a problem for me, I can accept it behaving this way. Is this thing frequent? I mean should I keep in mind that sometimes the present continuous cam cover this kind og situations too?

@ChristopherFritz

If the subject is a person, 書(か)いている means the person is actively writing.

If the subject is what is written, 書(か)いている means the subject is existing as being written.

Thanks for providing the examples, this is very interesting… it’s not clear what happens with いる compared to ある tho, also I wonder if ある gets contracted that way too?

[anon99047008]

@mariodesu

I get what you mean, when I read you translation I suspected you were providing it with this in mind. The present continuous has a… wider use in Japanese (can we say like this?)

At least as it pertains to 書く, yes; it appears to have a wider use than English would apply.

@mariodesu

It’s not really a problem for me, I can accept it behaving this way. Is this thing frequent? I mean should I keep in mind that sometimes the present continuous cam cover this kind og situations too?

I’m not sure if this applies to other words besides 書く, but with this specific word, it definitely seems to work this way.

@mariodesu

Thanks for providing the examples, this is very interesting… it’s not clear what happens with いる compared to ある tho, also I wonder if ある gets contracted that way too?

I may be misunderstanding what you mean by the いる vs ある, but just in case, ～てある is its own grammar point, separate from (but related to) ～ている that is essentially “is/has been done”. So in the case of 書いてある, that would literally be “has been written”, so it would make sense. I just can’t find any source supporting that ～てる can be a contraction for ～てある, which is why we are not sure if this is actually what’s happening or not.

[ChristopherFritz]

In this thread:

「書いていること」と「書いてあること」の表現の違いが分かりにくいです。 - 例えば、「Ａさんが書いているブログ」という文章... - Yahoo!知恵袋

Someone asks whether to use 書(か)いている or 書(か)いてある for something that is written.

The first response says to think of the main verb (書(か)く) and the auxiliary verb (いる or ある) separately.

They say the function of “いる for people” and “ある for things” doesn’t exist here.

They say 「～いる」 expresses either a continuous action or a state of being.

If that is the case, then it makes sense that ～ている is used for someone writing (continuous action) and also for something that has been written (state of being).

Whether we can trust 「田 田子さん」 posting an answer on Yahoo!知恵袋 is of course another question entirely

In the final line, the person answering speaks to what their “feeling” as a native speaker is:

私の感じですけど、「～ている」は進行あるいは経験や状態の継続をあらわし、「～てある」は結果の存続のように思います。

Translated:

My feeling is that 「～ている」 indicates progress or a continuation of an experience or state, while 「～てある」 indicates the continuation of a result.

[mariodesu]

I didn’t think I could love the manga so much after watching the anime but I swear I’m laughing aloud in the train at watching and reading these scenes (perhaps being sleep deprived plays a role). Nishikata and Takagi are really the best. Reading this as the first thing was the best choice!

か…か
かえしてくれよお！！！
First we have かえす in it’s te form that attaches to the imperative of くれる which is irregular and just drops the る becoming くれ, second, I guess that よお is just an elongated sentence ending particle よー

@anon99047008

I’m not sure if this applies to other words besides 書く, but with this specific word, it definitely seems to work this way.

Ok, I won’t give it too much attention then

@anon99047008

～てる can be a contraction for ～てある

This is exactly what I was wondering

@ChristopherFritz

My feeling is that 「～ている」 indicates progress or a continuation of an experience or state, while 「～てある」 indicates the continuation of a result.

Very clear, if other details emerge on this please share it on this topic

[mariodesu]

ち…違うんだよ
I suppose that ん is の. It should mean something like “it’s not what you think!” but I’m not sure about the use of 違う

誰かが書いたんだよきっと！！
誰かが someone (subject)
書いた wrote (past)
のだよ (our good old explanatory の with some assertion in the desperate attempt to justify that embarrassing situation…?)
きっと surely
→ it surely is that someone (else) wrote it!!
Correct…?

[anon99047008]

I would say that you are correct.

[mariodesu]

Good evening everyone!

何も書いてないじゃん

“There’s nothing written on it, isn’t it!!”

何も “nothing”
書いてない “not written” (ない is the negative form of ある and not いない contracted as I thought at first)
じゃん contraction of じゃない, in this case it’s not a real question but a rhetoric expression

てか高木さん消しゴム持ってるじゃん！！！

“Or, should I say, you have an eraser!!! (Contrarily to what you’d told me)”

てか “or, better/rather/ or should I say” etc…
消しゴム持って(あ?)る I’m not sure wether it’s ある or いる at the end. I read some articles explaining the difference between the two and yet can’t differentiate. To me having an eraser is more a continued state than a completed action whose results are in place, so I’m going to say that the る is short of いる

So I guess this sentence without contractions and dropped particles would be

てか、高木さんは消しゴムを持っているじゃない！！！

[anon99047008]

You definitely have the correct meaning.

Also, I would say that, unless somebody comes in with a source saying otherwise, ～てある cannot be contracted into ～てる. I spent quite a bit of time yesterday evening trying to find any source suggesting it could, and had no luck, so I’m fairly confident in saying that ～てる is only a contraction of ～ている.

[SoulStealerShuly]

agree with this…while I know our resident manga SME can probably find some example…completely agree with you…

[mariodesu]

@anon99047008

I just can’t find any source supporting that ～てる can be a contraction for ～てある, which is why we are not sure if this is actually what’s happening or not.

Oh I’m sorry, I totally forgot this conversation we had yesterday. I’m going to check this again because as I mentioned yesterday,
I spent the night traveling and still have to get some hours of sleep, brain doesn’t connect anymore
Also thanks for checking the translation

[anon99047008]

I think the issue is, that one would need to find an actual grammar source proving that’s what’s being contracted, and not just an image from manga where it’s like, “Well, it could be this.” ～てある and ～ている are such similar use cases (not to say they mean the same thing, but you see them in similar sentences, with different nuance, to be clear), that just seeing a contraction of ～てる without any kind of background as to what it’s supposed to be, you’ll have a hard time being able to prove if the intent was ～ている vs ～てある, you know?

The fact that the Wiktionary page for ～てる exclusively lists it as a contraction for ～ている, with no mention of ～てある, also makes me skeptical as to that possibility. Wiktionary has been pretty good to me in terms of finding even weird etymology (that など+とて being contracted into なんて, for example. I would never have gotten there on my own. )

(Also, I realize I’m preaching to the choir, since you agree with me. I’m just kinda blurting my thoughts out so that maybe somebody can either prove me wrong or confirm them. )

@mariodesu

Oh I’m sorry, I totally forgot this conversation we had yesterday. I’m going to check this again because as I mentioned yesterday,
I spent the night traveling and still have to get some hours of sleep, brain doesn’t connect anymore
Also thanks for checking the translation

Nothing to apologize for! I hope you get some rest to make up for the travels!

[BestOrange]

@anon99047008

～てる is only a contraction of ～ている.

I’d like to second this

lots and lots of resources agree