May 3rd Daily Reading ブラックジャックによろしく Manga

★★ Please answer the following:

Could we find a way to make a single thread per episode without having too much scrolling?


This is a reading comprehension exercise which aims to put the community in charge of the activity. I’ve requested this original message to be a wiki.

How can I participate?
Click on the :arrow_forward:︎ to reveal the text.

★The rules have been updated. Please read the new one.

Rules↓

①Choose one of the letters from the list below. Claim your letter by posting a reply in the thread here. That is so two people don’t end up doing the same letter.
②Edit your ‘claim reply’ with a vocabulary section where you list the vocabulary words and explain what they mean.
③ Develop your interpretation. This will help people understand and learn from your explanation.
④When discussing the content of the manga, please begin your message with the letter you are addressing. This allows people to know right away about which strip you are talking about.

Places and names↓
  • 斉藤 英二郎 (さいとう えいじろう): the main character. He is an idealist who wants to be a doctor to help people as opposed to become rich.
  • 永禄大学: the Eiroku (or Eternal Fortune) university, where Saitou graduated. Abbreviation: 永大.
  • 誠同病院: Seidou hospital, a private hospital where Saitou did part-time job at night (on Episode 1). It paid well but was in conflict with Saitou’s values and beliefs.
  • 服部 脩(はっとり おさむ): director of Seidou hospital.
  • 牛田 克雄(うしだ かつお): doctor that worked at night at Seidou hospital. He told (on Ep.1) Saitou about how that hospital prefers traffic accidentees as their treatment is not reglemented and can be billed four times more. And tries to get back in contact with Saitou, by phone (Ep.2) then by letter (Ep.3).
  • 出久根 邦弥(でくね くにや): fellow intern that (Ep.2 & 3) trains with Saitou.
  • 第一外科 : 1st surgery department. Eiroku U. follows the “super rotate” method, in which interns train on various different services in rotation; at Ep. 2 & 3 Saitou trains here.
  • 春日部 一郎(かすかべ いちろう): nicknamed “God’s hands”, is a professor at the Eiroku University hospital that just do initial incisions, and otherwise is interested only in study of eels.
  • 白鳥 貴久(しらとり たかひさ): doctor at the 1st surgery department that did the actual operation (Ep.2) at which “God’s hands” appeared. He is the instructor of Saitou and Dekune.
  • 金子 敏夫(かねこ としお): the 75 year old person that got the surgery (Ep.2). Pr. Shiratori assigns Saitou to take care of him; the operation was successful, but he is still unconscious.

p. 12-13:


Direct link to the pages so you can zoom in

Currently available:

Done
  • A : Saitou: 昨日から無尿状態『が』続いていて…
  • B : BUNが110まで上昇しました… 腹膜透析を開始したいのですが
    The BUN raised until 110… I wanted to start a pertioneal dialysis but…
    C, D, E : 白鳥先生 : 何もしなくていい…
    It’s OK to do nothing
    斉藤 : ですが先生…
    But, professor…
    このままでは金子さんの容体は…
    If we do nothing the condition of Mr. Kaneko…
    白鳥先生 : 君にはまだ分からないのか?
    You haven’t understood yet?
    あの手術の意味が…
    …the meaning of that operation
  • F & G : Pr. Shiratori: 患者は自宅で倒れ意識不明のままここへ運ばれてきた……
    The patient collapsed in his own home and was transported all the way here…
    それにもかかわらず手術が行われたのは一日たった後だ
    In spite of that, the performing of the surgery happened only after one day had passed.
    今にも死にそうな患者を前にすぐに手術をしなかった理由が何か分かるか?
    Do you know what the reason that the patient, who even now looks like he will die, was not operated on immediately earlier?
  • H : 常識的に考えて手遅れだったからだ
    Thinking about it commonsensically, it’s because it’s too late.

Miscellenous

★(Links to the manga online, previous reading exercises) ↓

May reading exercises - 五月の読書練習

第3話 75歳の値段

29日 30日 1日 2日
3日 4日 5日 6日 7日 8日 9日
10日 11日 12日 13日 14日 15日 16日
17日 18日 19日 20日 21日 22日 23日
24日 25日 26日 27日 28日 29日 30日
31日

第1話 研修医の夜 : start of reading exercises (on external forum)
第2話 ウナギとゴッドハンド : start of reading exercises (on external forum); then on wanikani
第3話 75歳の値段 : start of reading exercises

The Manga Available Online for Free
Episode 3 : 第3話 75歳の値段
Episode 2 : 第2話 ウナギとゴッドハンド
Episode 1 : 第1話 研修医の夜
Jisho: dictionary

★Formatting Guidelines and ideas↓

Color Coding

Finally asked and found out how to color code:

\color{red} \text{This is Red}

put a “$” before and after that, with a space in between.

2 Likes

Re: having a single thread per episode:

I personally don’t mind scrolling, I’d just want for things to keep organised and non-chaotic.

Advantages in a thread per episode:

  • No need to ask a moderator for wiki status every day.
  • Possibility to archive Jonapedia’s messages in each episode.
  • easier to follow what’s going on without jumping from thread to thread
  • less clutter in the reading section for the community
  • less work for me to create a thread daily
  • no leftover pages to deal with

We’d just need to stick to the rules with letter heading our messages and using collapse triangles. If we do, threads could remain relatively short.

Letters could follow up from one page to another in the summary tab.

1 Like

I think a good compromise would be a per-episode thread, with a wiki; and having there the list of people and places, the history so far, the links to pages, etc.

Then having a thread for couple of pages (2, 4 or 6 pages, depending on how much text and its difficulty).
Those threads would host the pictures of the pages and the analysis.

The “claiming”, current page picture, and list of interpretations (the “done” section) could be put on the main wiki page of the episode, then copied to the 1st post of the corresponding thread once it is finished.

The advantages:

  • no need to disturb moderators each day with a request to made a wiki
  • no risk of missing something (as there will be only one point of contact per episode, and it will provide up to date information)
  • removing the reference to “days” and replacing with “page numbers” would be also better I think; so the pace could be accelerated or slowed at will depending on the complexity of the texts and the availability of people. It could also help people that are not yet at a level allowing them to fully digest a complex sentence in a single day (I’m not meaning 24h; but most often people also have other activities, and on single day they can just get 1 or 2 or 3 hours for Japanese forum; and with the needed research in dictionaries, research of kanji to type them, etc, they need more time, and that means finishing the day after… a “daily” title may be perceived as out of reach for such people. … I know, I was in such case some time ago (it took me near a month to finish 桃太郎の話 )
  • the main thread could handle meta-discussions (things outside of the interpretation itself), and also important information, either as articles, or as links to those articles (I’m thinking at the very extense and interesting article Jonapedia wrote aboute learning ressources)

We’d just need to stick to the rules with letter heading

It would then be a good thing to change that so to start with “A” again for each new 2-faced-pages (eg: p10-11, p14-15, etc.) and prefix the letter the page number : p10.A, p11.G, p15.F, etc so each reference is unambiguosly unique.

2 Likes

Come to think about it, instead of letters for strips, I think numbers would be better. It’d keep things simple and avoid any confusion (A from that page or A from that page).

I personally would still aggregate everything as one thread per episode but if it’s disagreeable to participants I’ll just go with the majority. Or we could have one thread for the first half and one thread for the second half of an episode.

We can start experimenting with a new model tomorrow when more members have expressed their opinion about this. I’d like a vote to take place since I’m obsessed with democracy driven decisions.

Claiming A.

1 Like

A:

Transcription:
①《あの白鳥先生》
Ahem, doctor Shiratori…

②《昨日『から』無尿状態『が』続いていて…》
昨日【きのう】yesterday;
から: from…
無尿【むにょう】anuria;
What is a anuria?:

  1. failure of the kidneys to produce urine.

状態【じょうたい】condition, status;
続いていて: I’m not familiar with ~いていて. I don’t think I’ve ever seen two ~て forms consecutively like that. What does it refer to?

@arlo
Could you make the first message a wiki please? We’re trying to set up something so we won’t ask you every day. Hopefully, tomorrow we can start editing in this thread as opposed to asking for another wiki.

1 Like

I think one thread per episode/chapter sounds doable. We just have to be able to link to the first post for each new screenshot to avoid too much scrolling. (My issue with scrolling is more that it’s easy to overshoot the section you’re looking for or to mix it up with another one, and not so much that it’s troublesome to spend time scrolling.) It might make it easier to adjust our pace and to keep discussions in one place. Anyway, so, the vote…

What format should we use for future translations and discussions?

(All interested in participating are welcome to vote!)

  • 1 thread per episode/chapter
  • 1 thread per screenshot
  • 1 home/index thread per episode to act as a contents & general discussion page + 1 thread per daily ‘translation project’

0 voters

Edited to add @YanagiPablo’s suggestion. Did I understand it correctly?

2 Likes

Could you add @YanagiPablo’s suggestion in the poll options please?

Thank you!

Hi, I’m not really planning to join since I don’t have enough time, but this is a neat idea!

I have a question/suggestion about these rules (since you’re all discussing the format already). Why not do everything in the same reply?

You could have the following steps instead:

  1. Claim a part, and mark it to be done.
  2. Edit your comment to add a folded Vocabulary section.
  3. Edit your comment to add a folded Interpretation section.

This would help anyone who comes later through the threads read everything mostly in order (barring people not going through with their claims).

And if you have a home thread you could probably link it in the Master List of Book Clubs :slight_smile:

4 Likes

@kelitt
Yes, it’s generally what we do actually. The rules have been copied/pasted since the beginning so that part is a bit outdated.

Maybe guidelines would be a better term. I think the approach to claiming a strip could be personalised to facilitate newcomers and encourage participation.

2 Likes

The thing is that an episode is around 25-55 pages; that is some 13-25 images;
And counting 8 “letters” per double page, and some 3-5 messages per “letter”, that makes between 500 and 1100 posts per episode. I think that will make the thread too long to be attractive.

1 Like

Isn’t an episode 22 pages?
https://www.sukima.me/bv/t/blackjackniyoroshiku/v/1/s/3/p/22

Above is the url for the last page for episode 3. It says p.22. I also counted the pages to make sure and there are 22 pages in volume 3.

Episode 4 is 32 pages however. It varies from episode to episode, it’s not a set format.

Another option: create a new thread when a reply threshold is reached and then name it Part II,Part III like @Shannon-8 used to do at DL.

A quick sample:
April 28th: 39 replies
April 29th: 47 replies
April 30th: 32 replies
May 1st: 26 replies
May 2nd: 20 replies

Maybe at 50 replies, we finish the page in progress and move on to a new thread?

Just putting this out there.

Yes, I was actually thinking about something like that.

The first mesage of the thread could have just one picture (一枚) of a double page;
then, further on the thread, when all the text has been processed, someone posts a new message with one picture of the following two pages;
and edits the wiki 1st message of the “episode” thread to point to the “current” double page picture, and so on.

Actually in such format, it could be longer per thread.
(I still think all in one thread per episode could be too much; maybe going on a new thread after 80-100 messages ?)

I like the idea of creating a new Part once we reach a certain amount of replies. The concept of “daily” would disappear to give place for a continuous process. Once we reach x message we start a new thread. Parts are determined on the episode. Once an episode is complete, we go back to part I.

I think 100 messages would be too long. Our longest one is less than 50 and it’s already really long. Twice that amount would disgruntle people who don’t like scrolling.

B.

BUNが110まで上昇しました…

腹膜透析を開始したいのですが

 

The BUN raised until 110... I wanted to start a pertioneal dialysis but...

BUNが110まで上昇しました…
BUN [subject] 110 [until] raising / do+polite+past

腹膜透析を開始したいのですが
peritoneum + dialysis [object] start + do+want / のです [but]

I had no idea what BUN was; so I searched it.
In japanese it is 血液尿素窒素 (けつえきにょうそちっそ), Blood (血液) urea (尿素) nitrogen (窒素).
It’s a medical test that measures the amount of urea nitrogen found in blood.

  • 上昇 (じょうしょう) + する : rising, ascending
  • 腹膜 (ふくまく) : peritoneum (腹=abdomen, 膜=membrane)
  • 透析 (とうせき) : dialysis
  • 開始 (かいし) : start, begining (note how the word is made from 開=open and 始=begin)
  • したい : する + ~たい adjective suffix, which gives the idea of “to want to (verb)”
  • のですが : explicative のです (note how he doesn’t slurr it when speaking to his superior); and が at the end = but (as Shiratori told him to not do too much and follow the isntructions; so Saitou sais he “wanted to do dialysis but (I asks you before)”, with the part in aprenthesis not stated (or maybe Shiratori just interrpts his speech))

(and for the record, 吹き出し (ふきだし, the thing blown out) is the Japanese name of comics bubbles)
Oh, I like the kanji for urine, 尿, water under a body、yep, that is exactly what it is with a young child (before diapers were invented at least)

And blood… a drop ( ﹅ ) coming into a plate ( 皿 ) (most probably a reference to old sacrificial practices; I don’t have an etymological dictionary at hand)
The technical word 血液 is blood (血) + liquid, fluid (液) (yep, 三水 (さんすい, the 3 dotted water radical⺡) and 夜)

Re: A:

Summary

I did some research regarding my question. Apparently:

So it’s now down to what つかまえている means. The て-form of a verb plus いる can have many different translations (and I’m sure you will find many applicable questions on Stack Enchange). I will attempt to distill it to its most general sense. The て-form plus いる conveys the state that the subject is in after having performed the verb .

The て-form plus いる usually translates to the present progressive or the present perfect in English.

1 Like

As well as the current picture, you might as well keep the links to all the previous pictures as well.

You could have a table in the OP listing links to where each bit of discussion starts, and have the current link above the table, nice and big. E.g. when we have one thread for a whole manga volume, we’ll use a table in the OP to list links to the start of the discussion for each chapter.

If you have links to important points within the discussion it seriously mitigates the impact of scrolling.

2 Likes

If asked “what is anuria”, I would have been unable to reply; however 無尿 is straightforward: 無 = nothing (as in the zen concept; or as in a possible writing of ない (無い)); and 尿 = urine.

As urine is the main way to evacuate toxins out of our body, the absence of it would indeed be a serious problem.

1 Like

@YanagiPablo

が here is actually used as a form of politeness.

It indicates hesitance and usually carries the idea of something like ‘but I wanted to ask you first/I wasn’t sure’. It’s often used to present a statement to a (social) superior, especially if a response is required or if one wants to give the impression that he/she is not imposing himself on the listener. For example, a student might say to a teacher: 「あの…先生、ちょっと質問がありますが…」= ‘uh… Teacher, I have a question…’ It softens the statement and indicates that the student is respectfully waiting for the teacher’s reply. You can also use it when calling up a hotel to make enquiries for a reservation, even though as a customer, you technically are above the hotel staff in the hierarchy created by the context of service.

Well done. :-)

I’m not going to verify this in a more formal dictionary, but that’s what I was taught in a show for kids discussing the origins of Chinese characters. The context given was a ceremony in which chicken’s blood was used to seal a pact of brotherhood, so yes, you might say it’s a reference to sacrificial or ceremonial practices.

The information you found in your next post is correct. However, what you need to know is what the て-form can be used for in general.

If it’s at the end of a complete sentence, it’s usually meant to be an abbreviated 〜てください. If, however, it seems like the sentence is not complete or the sentence you see can’t possibly be a request or an instruction, then you need to know what て does in the middle of a sentence. So far, I’ve seen you translate 〜して as ‘and do ~’, something which I something prefer to write as ‘doing ~’. That’s not wrong, but there’s another possible meaning.

Fundamentally, the て-form is a connecting form and indicates that the て action is related to the main action.

One way they can be related is sequential. AてB, where A and B are verbs, can mean ‘A then B’, like in「ご飯を終えて、デザートを食べた」= ‘(I) finished my meal, and then ate dessert’. Another way they can be related is by happening simultaneously. We saw this in 無理してがんばる, which is literally ‘to do the impossible and make an effort’. However, these two actions definitely happen at the same time, because the phrase I just typed makes no sense. Most of the time though, the sequential nuance is stronger/more likely. This ‘simultaneous’/‘sequential’ relationship can also take the form of a list of actions that happen around the same time. Finally, they can be in a cause-and-effect relationship. て is (probably) the weakest way to express causation in Japanese. For instance, 「カラオケをしたかったけど、結局けっきょく金がんくて、帰ってしまった。」=’(We) wanted to go for karaoke, but in the end, we had no money and ended up going home.’ It can still be translated by ‘and’ in some cases, and in my example, the actions are almost sequential, but it’s really about cause and effect.

With that knowledge, we can analyse Saitou’s words. He’s listing what’s been happening to the patient, which we could interpret as a combination of ‘simultaneous actions’ and ‘justification’, but in this case, it’s really the simultaneous action/listing function that is being used. The reason the form is 続いていて is because he’s saying that the patient’s anuria ‘has continued’ and ‘is still continuing’. It has to be a continuous state. Another example of this, but with て(ください): 待っていて(ください) means ‘wait (for me)’, just like 待って, but with the nuance that the person who accedes to this request will be waiting, possibly standing somewhere for a while expecting the requester to turn up, whereas 待って just asks someone to stop and wait for an instant.

1 Like

Only four people voted and we’re at 50/50 so I don’t think it’s representative.

What I suggest is that tomorrow I would start a new thread for episode 3. We’d continue where we left off today. I’d call it Episode 3: Part I (although it’s not really part I but for simplicity sake we’ll pretend it is).

We’ll stick to that thread until we reach around 50 replies, then whoever writes down the 50th reply will start a second thread titled Episode 3: Part II and so on.

As for editing the first message, they were tons of suggestions so voting for each one would impracticable at this point in time. We could edit as we go along and eventually we’ll find our feet and have a system which works.

If 50 replies isn’t right, comment about it and we’ll increase the ceiling or lower it.

Unless someone else wants to host tomorrow and approach it differently. In that case, I’ll follow along whatever that person decides.

@Jonapedia You could use an avatar, at the moment you look like everyone else (so could Shannon with her genius t-shirt picture).

But if it’s ongoing, shouldn’t it be ~て+いる as opposed to ~て+いて?

Also how do you determine is it’s sequential or simultaneous? I mean it’s a pretty big difference. Sometimes meanings will overlap like んだ for emphasis and explanations (they overlap, they’re not that different so mistaking the function doesn’t have a big impact in understanding the sentence).

If you feel like you’ve explained there’s no need to reply. I’ll read your reply again until I understand.

1 Like