Is there a script to skip kanji (English) meaning after it reaches guru and to skip readings entirely?

[yamitenshi]

@mitrac

I think of this kanji as the vocab word “power” or “strength”

Ah, that’s something to get your mind off of, IMO.

Kanji are not words. There are words that consist of just a single kanji, but that does not mean the kanji themselves are in fact words.

Now, WaniKani is a bit confusing with its “kanji reading” and “vocab reading” terms, since both are readings for the kanji, but you actually illustrate the issue quite nicely here: it’s not that ちから is the reading for the kanji because that’s how you read 力 as a word, and リキ and リョク are not readings for the kanji but just parts of other words, it’s that all of those are readings for 力 depending on where and how it’s used and it just happens that ちから is the reading used for 力 as a word. It’s also what you use in 力強い for instance.

@mitrac

if I’m reading, and I see力 alone, I will read it ちから. I don’t think this is a problem for someone who hasn’t started reading before coming to this method, but it’s really unnatural having already become comfortable with seeing that kanji as a word and not a kanji in isolation.

力 on its own in a text? Sure, that’s ちから.
But what about 実力, 馬力, 電力, 力説, 力点, 力士 and 力学 for instance? Knowing 力 as a kanji, and its associated readings, allows you to reason about not only what those words might mean but also how they might be read, even if you’ve never seen them before in your life. You’ll pick up on those patterns eventually of course, but I personally find that learning them in this manner does help.

@mitrac

How are you guys so friendly???

You know, at first I thought this should be surprising, but…

@mitrac

r/LearnJapanese

Yeah, that explains I’ll be honest, r/LearnJapanese is like 1% actually useful and meaningful content, and the other 99% is a mix of whatever poorly argumented rants are all the rage now, beginners thinking they understand the ins and outs of Japanese culture because they know all the N5 vocab, and people gatekeeping language learning to high heavens (because how dare you not do every single aspect of your life in Japanese and learn purely by immersion).

You came in here not at all dismissive and are respectful in every single thing you’ve said in this thread. Sure, we could call you a dumb idiot for not “getting” WaniKani’s brilliance and the glory of the Crabigator, but… why would we? That’s just being toxic for the sake of being toxic, and none of us here are under the illusion that WaniKani is the one true source for learning Japanese. Hell, if you’re coming into WaniKani expecting to actually be able to speak or understand Japanese by the end of it, I’d say you’re likely to come out severely disillusioned, with no way of expressing that in Japanese

Also this:

@shikaji

we let all the nastiness out in one sarcastic flood, whenever someone comes along and posts about paticles [sic] or quitting because Fugu breaks camels or something.

We get our fix

[VegasVed]

@yamitenshi

none of us here are under the illusion that WaniKani is the one true source for learning Japanese

How dare you?

@yamitenshi

if you’re coming into WaniKani expecting to actually be able to speak or understand Japanese by the end of it, I’d say you’re likely to come out severely disillusioned

Speak for yourself. I reached level 20 and now I’m fluent. On N1 test day, I didn’t even get out of bed. Two weeks later, I got my certificate. A perfect score. At this point, I’m just on here for the LOLs.

[Omun]

@yamitenshi

severely disillusioned, with no way of expressing that in Japanese

[yamitenshi]

@VegasVed

How dare you?

申し訳ございません

I will say two dozen Hail Koichis to repent

@VegasVed

On N1 test day, I didn’t even get out of bed. Two weeks later, I got my certificate. A perfect score. At this point, I’m just on here for the LOLs.

Does that mean level 60 gets you N0?

[mitrac]

@yamitenshi

Now, WaniKani is a bit confusing with its “kanji reading” and “vocab reading” terms, since both are readings for the kanji, but you actually illustrate the issue quite nicely here: it’s not that ちから is the reading for the kanji because that’s how you read 力 as a word, and リキ and リョク are not readings for the kanji but just parts of other words, it’s that all of those are readings for 力 depending on where and how it’s used and it just happens that ちから is the reading used for 力 as a word. It’s also what you use in 力強い for instance.

yep got that

力 on its own in a text? Sure, that’s ちから.
But what about 実力, 馬力, 電力, 力説, 力点, 力士 and 力学 for instance? Knowing 力 as a kanji, and its associated readings, allows you to reason about not only what those words might mean but also how they might be read, even if you’ve never seen them before in your life. You’ll pick up on those patterns eventually of course, but I personally find that learning them in this manner does help.

OK, cool, now I’m starting to get to the bottom of WK brain vs KKLC brain.

KKLC brain is thinking, when I see 力 (alone), I want to read ちから. When I see 実力 I want to read じつりょく. I don’t want to train reading 力 (as a kanji alone) as りょく, because then I might start making mistakes when I read any word that includes 力 and isn’t read as りょく (especially the cognitive dissonance between the kanji alone and vocab kanji alone readings). But you’re saying, the WK brain learns that pink = kanji (not word) and that memorising りょく means you might be better at guessing the reading for unknown vocab correctly more often down the road, and the brain will correctly deal with 力 (word) = ちから or other compound readings in the context of purple cards and actual text reading.

That’s interesting because now I see the answer to my original question more like a perspective shift than removing an annoyance. That’s something specific I can keep in mind while trying WK out and see if it’s a problem or a benefit down the road for me.

(I am still annoyed, to be honest, that I have to get 力 radical = power, 力 kanji = power, and 力 vocab = power all to burned. I’ll roll with it because due to SRS it’ll space it out and be easy, but… ! That’s pretty minor, though, compared to my cognitive dissonance concerns)

Thanks for taking the time to show your thought process!

[sporadic]

No one has mentioned using user synonyms to get rid of some of the work you don’t need/care for. There is a feature that allows you to add a user synonym instead of WK’s default meanings, since meaning is somewhat fluid.

If you want, you can just enter “radical” for radicals, or even a single letter, and never have to study a radical again, for example. You have to type the thing every time one comes up, but that’s relatively low effort.

For vocab I already know through long interaction with the language, I often enter the reading as the meaning rather than reinforce an English gloss. I don’t need the translation layer. It’s romaji, which is less than ideal, and I end up entering it twice during the review session, but again, low effort.

No way to skip readings, but as others have said, you’ll probably find those helpful along the way. The only time I get frustrated with it is when I can remember every reading for a kanji due to vocab except whatever one WK wants and my entries keep wagging back and forth. IMO, WK teaching a common reading with a kanji is a good thing, but it really should have a mode where all readings are accepted as legitimate.

Anyway, I think others have convinced you that removing all of the reviews would be a bad idea (and I agree with them), but hopefully these ideas will help reduce some of the pain points that exist coming to WK after some prior experience with the language.

Note, you probably don’t want to do this after you get to new content you don’t already know. The benefits of WK’s system will likely be more obvious then. But until then, this might help reduce some of the slog.

[mitrac]

hey, thanks so much! This is super helpful for getting through the initial slog of known material. It’s nice to know the option is there and that I have a bit more control than I thought.

[yamitenshi]

@mitrac

But you’re saying, the WK brain learns that pink = kanji (not word) and that memorising りょく means you might be better at guessing the reading for unknown vocab correctly more often down the road, and the brain will correctly deal with 力 (word) = ちから or other compound readings in the context of purple cards and actual text reading.

Basically, yes.

@mitrac

I am still annoyed, to be honest, that I have to get 力 radical = power, 力 kanji = power, and 力 vocab = power all to burned

Yeah, I can see that. Especially the tendency to separate a kanji from its use as a radical is a bit annoying at times, but luckily that makes up only a very small portion of WK’s content.

As for the meaning of the kanji and the meaning of a single-kanji word, those usually line up but not always. 生 comes to mind - as a kanji it means life or birth, as a word it means raw or fresh. Which in turn also helps with meanings, because when you see it with its on’yomi, it’s more likely to refer to concepts of life or birth, like in 生(う)まれる or 生(い)き) but when you see it with its kun’yomi it’s more likely to be used as a descriptor/qualifier meaning something along the lines of fresh or raw (like 生米(なまごめ)). That’s not foolproof of course, but the tendencies and patterns are there.

@sporadic

No one has mentioned using user synonyms to get rid of some of the work you don’t need/care for.

Yes, I wholeheartedly support this - and something like a double check script as well to help you not get answers wrong because of typos or using and ever so slightly “wrong” wording.

With vocab and kanji it’s about knowing the meaning, not about knowing the English translation. If you use the wrong English word for the right concept a kanji conveys, you know the kanji, so just add a synonym and be done with it. Just be critical of whether you actually have the right thing in mind.

As for radicals… I find them useful to know about because they let me break kanji down into fewer familiar parts, essentially, but I kinda just refuse to be held back on them (and as such I judiciously use the override function in the double check script for them). The names WK gives them don’t match up with the Japanese names for them anyway, and they’re kind of arbitrary much of the time, only fitting the mnemonics (which I find less and less useful as I go along). And in the cases where the radical is also a kanji, I’ll learn the proper meaning with the kanji.

But that’s highly personal - others find learning the radicals as intended very useful, I just personally don’t find them useful beyond seeing the radical a few times to get familiar with it.

[mitrac]

@yamitenshi

As for the meaning of the kanji and the meaning of a single-kanji word, those usually line up but not always. 生 comes to mind - as a kanji it means life or birth, as a word it means raw or fresh. Which in turn also helps with meanings, because when you see it with its on’yomi, it’s more likely to refer to concepts of life or birth, like in 生(う)まれる or 生(い)き) but when you see it with its kun’yomi it’s more likely to be used as a descriptor/qualifier meaning something along the lines of fresh or raw (like 生米(なまごめ)). That’s not foolproof of course, but the tendencies and patterns are there.

cool example, thanks!
Also, the double check script looks useful, thanks!

It’s really interesting to hear some of these nuances about how you use it, and what is helpful or not. I really appreciate it

[skatefriday]

@mitrac

How are you guys so friendly???

I think it’s a combination of factors. First and foremost, everyone here is doing one of the hardest things they’ve ever done and the community is a big support blanket for when you are struggling. Shared struggle brings people together.

Second, while there’s no paywall on the forum, the paywall on WK influences the participation here to the extent that 98% of the people here care enough about what they are doing to part with some real money. So you don’t get the people who are just on to make trouble.

Third, this forum is backed by Discourse, which has in its DNA, “civilized discussion”. There’s a massive amount of administrative software that you never see on the front end that gives moderators the tooling to ensure that things don’t start circling the toilet.

This community is a big part of what makes WK special.

[sporadic]

@yamitenshi

As for radicals… I find them useful to know about because they let me break kanji down into fewer familiar parts, essentially, but I kinda just refuse to be held back on them (and as such I judiciously use the override function in the double check script for them). The names WK gives them don’t match up with the Japanese names for them anyway, and they’re kind of arbitrary much of the time, only fitting the mnemonics (which I find less and less useful as I go along). And in the cases where the radical is also a kanji, I’ll learn the proper meaning with the kanji.

Yeah, I should have mentioned in my initial post that the first thing I do with any WK radical is add as a synonym the kanji meaning (if any) for the radical. Knowing the WK radical “meaning” is useful for mnemonics, but it shouldn’t be getting in the way.

I also enter the Heisig Remembering the Kanji meaning, if I remember it. I did Heisig years ago, so every once in awhile, that meaning is what comes up for a radical or kanji.

I use a modified double check script that only allows overrides for meaning, but not reading. It’s (for me) too dangerous to allow overrides on readings, since I’ll abuse it. Instead, I use the “Do you even Kana” script to at least catch the stupid typos I make with attached hiragana. It’s a bit of a compromise.

[mitrac]

@skatefriday

I think it’s a combination of factors. First and foremost, everyone here is doing one of the hardest things they’ve ever done and the community is a big support blanket for when you are struggling. Shared struggle brings people together.

Second, while there’s no paywall on the forum, the paywall on WK influences the participation here to the extent that 98% of the people here care enough about what they are doing to part with some real money. So you don’t get the people who are just on to make trouble.

Third, this forum is backed by Discourse, which has in its DNA, “civilized discussion”. There’s a massive amount of administrative software that you never see on the front end that gives moderators the tooling to ensure that things don’t start circling the toilet.

This community is a big part of what makes WK special.

great analysis, I’m going to start looking for those characteristics to find other great online communities.

[mitrac]

@sporadic

Yeah, I should have mentioned in my initial post that the first thing I do with any WK radical is add as a synonym the kanji meaning (if any) for the radical. Knowing the WK radical “meaning” is useful for mnemonics, but it shouldn’t be getting in the way.

great one, I will definitely do this for what legitimately comes up for previously known radicals / kanji!

[Belthazar]

@VegasVed

Having said that, I’d love a way to automatically mark radicals correct after Guru 2.

Weren’t they working out a system whereby radicals would run on a different timer so you could burn them faster? Or was it just reach Guru faster?

@VegasVed

Two weeks later

This here is the part where I know you’re lying.

Fluent at level 20? Sure, that works. Pass N1 from your bed? Absolutely.

JLPT organisation mark a test in less than several months? Not a chance.

[HaseebYousfani]

(I am still annoyed, to be honest, that I have to get 力 radical = power, 力 kanji = power, and 力 vocab = power all to burned. I’ll roll with it because due to SRS it’ll space it out and be easy, but… ! That’s pretty minor, though, compared to my cognitive dissonance concerns)

I suggest this for radicals, get the double check script, when you’re reviewing them, just mark them correct every time whether you got it right or not. I’m not sure what others think of this, but I do this, simply because the radicals can have different names than the kanji and that makes me get them wrong for no reason, doing this doesn’t impede my Kanji learning actually, I still use radicals as the building block for it because it stays in my short time memory, and I usually don’t forget but if I do, by that time, I’ve already memorized the kanji.

Make sure not to abuse the script for other things though.

[DIO-Berry]

@mitrac

I think of this kanji as the vocab word “power” or “strength”, which is pronounced ちから. That means when I see 力 alone, from my perspective it is more correct to identify it as ちから than リキ, which is what wanikani wants. So I have to really force myself to identify it as a kanji and not a word. But the point is to read, right? and if I’m reading, and I see力 alone, I will read it ちから. I don’t think this is a problem for someone who hasn’t started reading before coming to this method, but it’s really unnatural having already become comfortable with seeing that kanji as a word and not a kanji in isolation.

I think the ideal solution to this problem is @ChristopherFritz’s most excellent userscript

[Userscript] WaniKani Kanji Review Vocabulary List

Somehow or other, I’ve cobbled together my first userscript. Purpose These past few months year, the number one thing I’ve spent my WaniKani time on has been book clubs reviewing the same leeches over and over and over again. No technique has been completely successful at combating these leeches. However, one recent technique has shown great promise for improving my kanji reviews: adding vocabulary words to the review screen. Having this vocabulary list has doubled to tripled my review accu…

It shows kanji in words. It shows as many wk vocab words that kanji is in that you please, so that will probably trigger you to remember that it’s looking for the compound reading most often.

As for radicals, you can add “x” as a synonym and then fast track them.

Of course, this doesn’t help you learn using the mnemonics, but if you weren’t intending to ever use them, that’s moot.

[DIO-Berry]

@Omun

For a hot moment I thought that was a typo for ぴえん but I realize it’s a reference to that awful video

[Omun]

@DIO-Berry

that awful video

Now I’m curious about what video you mean, because I wasn’t referencing anything other than the fact that this sentence is used in a lot of beginner resources (and some of them fail to properly teach that は ≠ is)

[DIO-Berry]

Awfulness throughout, but the 1:30 part especially

This is a pen. / Japanese prevented the spread of infection !! / looooooooooooooooooooool

[Omun]

I think an overused meme is the only way to describe my facial expression when faced with such… rigorous scientific testing.

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