Chopstick confusion


#1

I’m currently looking into phonetic compounds, and was looking up 者, but I am confused with 箸.

It looks like 14 strokes, and the WK stroke order userscript loads the following:

Now if you look at jisho itself it is 15 strokes, and the diagram looks different.

The reading is not related to 者 at all, so I suspect that the 15 stroke variant does not really include 者. Is this just a font difference or what is going in here? Which is the “correct” one?


#2

Maybe it is related to “official form” and “accepted forms”. Sometimes, there is one extra dot on some Kanji… what are they, besides 箸?..

Oh yeah, like 賭け.

https://community.wanikani.com/t/how-do-you-write-taking-japanese-fonts-into-consideration/15996/7?u=polv and https://japanese.stackexchange.com/questions/41983/噌-variants-in-different-fonts and https://community.wanikani.com/t/some-kanji-writing-poll/19052/47?u=polv


#3

I just looked this kanji up in a Jouyou kanji book. It has the 15-stroke version, but just above it in parentheses is the 14-stroke version (the one in the stroke order userscript you posted.) I asked the Kokugo teacher sitting next to me and she explained that he simplified,14-stroke version is most commonly used in everyday handwriting, while the 15-stroke version is the “official” version that is usually used in computer fonts and calligraphy.


#4

Thanks, great! @polv’s example also has a different reading, is the 者+1 stroke a different phonetic component? Along the lines of と、ちょ、ちゃく?


#5

Exactly what @bluemoose said. To add on, the base radical for the composition of 箸 is radical 118, たけかんむり (𥫗), rather than 者. To my knowledge, 者 is simply an older version of 者. It seems there are many similar Kanji, such as 都 and 都 (which is exclusively Jinmeiyou it seems). The てん radical contained was probably dropped over time in handwriting I imagine. The Kun’Yomi and On’Yomi are also the same (mono and sha, respectively).


#6

Another one, 猪 can be read チョ, but with and without dot have different unicodes.

http://jisho.org/search/いのしし
59 PM

Anyway, for 賭け
http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=賭


#7

As far as I can understand, it’s not a phonetic component, it’s more like a cursive version of the “者+1” radical. It’s the exact same kanji with the same reading and meaning, but the 14-stroke version is just easier to write if you’re in a hurry.


#8

If you’re interested in a Japanese read, I found an interesting article dealing with the official standards for kanji in the last century that led to this: https://internet.watch.impress.co.jp/cda/jouyou/2008/07/24/20350.html

Essentially, as the Kanji tables were officially edited over the decades (eventually into the JIS system for computers), the てん radical got thrown back and forth onto and off of 者. By technicality, both 者 and 者 are acceptable uses for a person, but 箸 MUST contain the てん. Of course, as mentioned above, when writing, some may skip using it. It’s not “proper” though. As for 者, it’s just fancier to use unless it’s contained in a name.


#9

@polv, @bluemoose, @EiriMatsu, thanks for your input! Looks like it is even more interesting and complicated than I expected.

As I said, I’m working on a userscript to show the use of tone marks in phonetic compounds. For 者 I found out the following (I will use only the ones in WK):

しゃ: 奢煮赭煑偖奢

しょ: 渚陼暑署翥諸緒
(ちょ: 箸豬楮褚)

と: 堵屠都瘏賭闍睹覩

The しゃ reading is obvious, I was just wondering where the しょ (+ちょ?) and と are coming from. For the userscript I will just give all three/four as possible options when you see 者. I just thought there might be a “historical distinction” to explain this.


#10

Guys this video might shed some light on why same radical might have some differences in different kanji.


#11

Weird. When I look it up on en.wiktionary.org, the kanji is rendered without the extra dot in the font used (OSX, Safari), so even “official” fonts differ. When I look it up on jisho, it does have the dot.