Ch 13 Grammar week (Genki 2 and friends grammar club - Week 1)

Tonight I’ll try to put up some pair work text to get things going :slight_smile: Last night I was looking through the そうです and なら points more closely.

the そうです is a bit confusing because I already learned a different form regarding hearsay in an online class I did (that form will be covered in Genki Ch 17). As far as I understand it’s like this:

おいしそうです - It looks (or It seems) it’s delicious (stem + そう, Ch 13 grammar)
おいしいそうです - I hear it’s delicious (short form + そう, Ch 17 grammar)

:worried: how is that ever going to become automatic? I mean, I remember thinking that when learning adjective conjugations, and it turned out ok. But still! Anyone have any ideas to remember how to distinguish these patterns? With the latter one, I kinda imagine quoting someone who says そうです (he said it was so…) to remind myself to use the short forms like with the quoting と particle. Whereas, with the current use, it’s a bit like an addon to my own impression, like たい which uses stems.

When I try to use grammar I learned earlier, I often mix up which forms take short forms and which take stems. That’s why I’m trying now to connect the concepts a bit more and see if that helps.

Regarding なら, I read something interesting in the DOBJG, that this is (or came from) the conditional form of the copula です。 I think that might help me to use it more correctly, because both Genki and that resource emphasize the use is for conjecture. I suspect that’s why Genki starts with just a few ways to use it rather than all ways, to reinforce good habits from the start. It’s so tempting to just assign なら = “if” but it seems it’s not that simple.

I’ll be interested what kind of impressions/sticking points you all are having with these points!

1 Like

ok, I couldn’t wait. Here is my attempt at getting all grammar points into one stream of thought. I found it easier to make it abstract, as in - I don’t necessarily identify with all of it, just having fun :slight_smile:

Edit: corrected based on comments:
歌えますか。練習をしないし、歌を知らないし、歌うのができません。でも楽しそうですね。もっと音楽の興味がありたいです。歌ができる友達がいるなら、楽しく歌いますよ。多分、一週間に一回歌ってみます。

Original, and with furigana:

歌えますか。練習をしないし、歌を知らないし、歌うのができません。でも楽しそうですね。もっと音楽の興味がありたいです。歌をできる友達があるなら、楽しく歌いますよ。多分、一週間に一回歌ってみます。
wow! to create the furigana version below I wrote the text in Word, then highlighted it and clicked the Ruby button
image and then copied that, and it created all the code to make this appear nicely here! I just had to make one correction. I didn’t know it was that easy.

(うた)えますか。練習(れんしゅう)をしないし、(うた)()らないし、(うた)うのができません。でも(たの)しそうですね。もっと音楽(おんがく)興味(きょうみ)がありたいです。(うた)をできる友達(ともだち)があるなら、(たの)しく(うた)いますよ。多分(たぶん)一週間(いっしゅうかん)一回歌(いっかいうた)ってみます。

Intended meaning:

Can you sing? I can’t sing because I don’t practice and don’t know songs, among other reasons. But it sounds fun. I would like to have more musical hobbies. If I had friends who sing, I would enjoy singing with them. Maybe I will try to sing once a week.

Writing this made me realise I don’t know the difference between し and など for having multiple reasons. I don’t think I really learned など, though, just have read it. But I’ll save that rabbit hole for another day.

I would love any corrections :heart_eyes: and looking forward to your writing!

I’m still in the process of finishing chapter 12 but I’m looking forward to the sessions once I’m done catching up. Thanks for organising! :grin:

1 Like

Try looking back into your previous post and see if you stuck to your own rule :smiley: Your english and japanese don’t agree. EDIT: after some more thought maybe you meant the “sounds” in a “seems” kinda way… hmm. I would still rather go for seems

できる normally uses the が particle or since this is a relative clause the の particle. を is really uncommen. In the previous sentence you used が with できる correctly.

All in all rough around the edges but you would probably mostly get your point across.

EDIT2: forgot

いる is probably what you would go for here.

2 Likes

lol, that is really funny, thanks for pointing it out :sweat_smile:

ah, good catch, now I remember that, and the ある/いる mixup.

Thank you so much for the comments and corrections, those are all super helpful! :four_leaf_clover:

Hopefully I’m not too late here. I wasn’t sure if I should join in, but I figure I should give it a try.

I’ve been learning on my own for about 16 months, mostly reading manga (Absolute Beginners Book Club) and looking things up when I need to. I’ve been using Bunpro and I’ve learned almost all of the Genki 1 grammar points, and a quite a few from Genki 2. At some point I tried reading a few chapters into Genki 1 before getting bored with the textbook format. Hopefully doing this more actively with others will help!

My weak points are probably vocabulary, getting the right particles (manga leaves out particles all the time) and a lack of practice forming sentences on my own. I want to be able to confidently speak basic things in Japanese. My concrete goals this year are to start listening and speaking in Japanese, finish the N4 grammar on Bunpro, and maybe get a tutor as well.

I’ll be following along using Genki 2 Second Edition and the Bunpro Genki II path. In the past I’ve also found A Dictionary of Japanese Particles and A Handbook of Japanese Grammar Patterns really useful (as well as Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar Patterns already mentioned).

Anyways, here’s a few sentences covering this weeks grammar points. Corrections and comments welcome!


バイオリンなら楽しそうだ

If it’s violin, it seems fun.

だけど、たくさん趣味があるし, 時間がないし、新しい趣味をして見ることができない。

However, because I have many hobbies, and because I have no time, I cannot try doing new hobbies.

一日に二回日本語を勉強してる

I’m studying Japanese 2 times a day (not exactly what I’m doing, but I couldn’t think of anything better to say using 〜に〜回)

3 Likes

I’m no expert, but I spent some time looking these up in more detail. It looks like し is used after verbs (or だ) giving a reason, but など is a particle marking a noun as an example. So kindof like “listing reasons” versus “listing examples”. I don’t think you could use し to list “examples of food I like”.

verb + し
noun + だ + し
verb + し + … + verb + し (for multiple reasons)

noun + など
noun + や + noun + など (for multiple non-exhaustive examples)

1 Like

so glad you’ve joined! It sounds like you have a really similar level and experience as I do. I’ve probably just done less reading practice. Welcome! I also find the grammar books dry (but useful for getting closer to goals). It will be really motivating to have more people actively trying to keep each other going.

me too!

I’ll be interested if someone with more experience comments on this. It seems to me it’s like the answer to the question (looking at people playing different instruments): 楽しそうですか。And the answer means you think it seems only those with the violin are having fun. Something doesn’t feel quite right about it as a general statement (if it’s violin, it seems fun), but I have absolutely nothing to back that up, lol. Somehow it feels like 楽しそうだ is commenting on an observation (that you have experienced), whereas バイオリンなら is a conditional. I wonder if these are compatible?
This is a bit of the blind leading the blind, but I wonder if these options are closer for general statements:
バイオリンなら、楽しいですよ!or
楽しそうなバイオリン

The other ones look good as far as I can tell

私も一日に二回日本語を勉強したいですが。。。ちょっと。。。

ooh that’s a good way of saying it that fits in with how I’ve seen it used. Thank you so much!! :cherry_blossom: :cherry_blossom: :cherry_blossom:

2 Likes

I would echoe your statement that this sentence feels stilted and the situations in which one can use it would be pretty limited. But going purely from a grammar standpoint it is not wrong per se. That’s why I didn’t comment on it. The sentence was lacking more context either way so I was not sure what the intention was.

For some other critique:

Your usage of たくさん is wrong. You either put it directly to the verb: だけど、趣味がたくさんあるし or as modiyfing the noun with たくさんの趣味 with a strong preference for the first one.

1 Like

That’s great that we’re around the same level! I’ve done a fair amount of reading, but I think I have some gaps in knowledge since I haven’t really made it through a textbook (yet!). Also it’s all been manga so far, so a lot more slang and a lot less formal speech.

Yeah, it definitely seems that my original sentence limits the hobbies that would be fun to “voilin”. “Only violin seems fun” instead of the intended “violin is one example of something fun.” To put some more natural context around the sentence, I think if this were the question:

ピアンは楽しそうですか

About piano, does it seem fun?

Then the answer sounds more natural:

バイオリンなら楽しそうだ

(not piano, but) if it’s violin, that seems fun

What I originally meant to say is simply 「バイオリンが楽しそう」 but of course that doesn’t use the grammar point.

Oh, of course たくさん would need の before a noun since it’s a noun itself. Thanks for the correction!

I was trying to find a reference for why たくさん would be preferred before the verb and not before the noun and I found a good explanation on stack overflow: たくさんの本を読んで versus 本をたくさん読んで. So you’re definitely right that 「だけど、趣味がたくさんあるし」 sounds best.

So たくさん used before a verb is acting as an adverb. I have seen it at the beginning of a sentence though (presumably as an adverb too), and I’m not sure what the difference is, if any. Genki doesn’t really explain any nuance, but it lists these two examples as both meaning “I ate a lot of vegetables” (Genki volume 1, edition 2, page 112):

野菜をたくさん食べました。
たくさん野菜を食べました。

1 Like

Here is my attempt at the discussion question.

ペットショップしてみたいです。たのしそうし、動物が好き。レストランや小売店なら勤めたことがありますが、ペットショップで勤めたことがありません。

I bolded the grammar points I used. (I couldn’t think of any can/can’t sentences :sweat_smile:)
Also, if someone can tell me how to add furigana to posts, that would be helpful!

1 Like

おもしろい! :+1: 動物の中で何が一番好きですか。

The way I make furigana in Wanikani is a bit round about. First I write the text using kanji in Word. Then (in Word) I highlight the text and click the Ruby icon:
image
That adds furigana in Word automatically. You have to check for mistakes and correct them. Then, copy the text with furigana from Word, and paste it to Wanikani. It’s magic and does all the formatting for you automatically!

To do the furigana manually with code in WK is really time consuming. Here is the code for (うた)

<ruby>歌<rp>(</rp><rt>うた</rt><rp>)</rp>

2 Likes

I’ve never tried it, but I’ve seen people using user scripts to make adding furigana easier on the forums. This might work for you:

2 Likes

カエルが一番好き! :frog:

I can do it on word, but I wanted to do it in the wanikani posts in case the kanji is too difficult for others.

Yeah I’ll just add how to read the difficult kanjis below next time and hide the readings with the blur spoiler tool to make it easier :sweat_smile:

1 Like

sorry, I didn’t write it very clearly, I’ll edit my post. You copy the text from Word and paste it to Wanikani - then voila - it shows up in WK nicely with furigana and properly formatted! It’s magic!

かわいい!

1 Like

Oh lol. That makes more sense :sweat_smile:

ありがとう!誰もがいつも変だと思っている :sweat_smile:

1 Like

I happened to come across this thread that you may enjoy if you haven’t seen it already:

https://community.wanikani.com/t/%E8%9B%99-froggo-appreciation-thread-%F0%9F%90%B8/54746

2 Likes

Aww cute thank you!

1 Like

I have two questions about this:

Genki 2, 3rd ed.
Exercise V-B (Example):
A: スポーツをよく見ますか。
B: いいえ、見ません。でも、運動するのは好きです。

The last sentence uses は instead of が because it is a new topic, correct? So the dialogue means something like “Do you watch sports often? - No, I don’t. But when it comes to exercising, I like that.”, right?

Would it be possible to use なら instead and say the following?
運動するなら好きですが、スポーツは見ません。

“I like exercising but I don’t watch sports.”

Or do the two parts of the sentence always have to end the same way when using なら like this? (e.g. 野球なら見ますが、サッカーは見ません。)

1 Like

I’m not an expert but I wouldn’t be surprised to read your sentence with nara. It sounds perfectly fine to me. The verbs don’t need to match up no. Though, I would probably not use it as an answer to that direct question since nara has a feel of picking something up said before. But the question didn’t contain 運動する.

What I want to throw in here is that this は (in both the example as well as your sentence) carries a nuance of contrast. That is probably the main reason why it is は instead of が in this case.

4 Likes