Made it to the T’s finally!
達
Does anyone know why that is? I don’t think I’d heard this before now, but now I’m curious, haha.
I don’t think I’ve encountered 共 or 方 as pluralizing suffixes much in the stuff that I read/listen to. I thought it was interesting about 子供 no longer being used as a plural (and instead 子供達 is the plural). I think I have seen 方々, but only in a textbook, haha.
This says that ら is the least formal plural marker, and it’s normally attached to personal pronouns and names. I’m actually not sure I’ve seen it written in kanji before? Typing it with my IME seems to support my assumption that 僕ら, for example, is more common than 僕等.
My main comment on this is that it sometimes creates minor translation issues for me haha because someone saying “[their name]達” for “we” comes across as a little self-centered in a way that can be hard to convey without making the sentence clunky. Sometimes I’ll just give up and translate it as “we”, but if the wrestler is specifically focusing on themself, I usually try to find a way to keep it.
Here's one example from Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling's show on 2023.09.09, after the 3-way tag match to determine which tag team would be challenging for the vacated tag titles at Wrestle Princess on October 9:
Hard mode: here’s the video. Usual disclaimer that the transcript is from shupro and might be flawed, and the translation is mine and may contain errors.
ぽむ「ああああああああああ！ 負けた」
Pom: “AAAAAHHHHHH! I lost!”
らく「うるさいから」
Raku: "Because you’re too loud.”
ぽむ「うるさいから？ ああああああああああ！」
Pom: “I’m too loud? AAAAAHHHHHH!”
らく「今日は広島くる時にこの3WAYの試合を夢で見たんですよ。で、勝ったんですよ。だから満足して、もう帰ろうかって思って起きたら…」
Raku: “When we were coming to Hiroshima, I saw this 3-way match in a dream. And we won. So I was satisfied, and just as I thought ‘well I guess I’ll go home,’ I woke up.”
ぽむ「広島に着いてたね」
Pom: “We’d arrived in Hiroshima.”
らく「まだ着いてなかった。…あれ？ 待って」
ぽむ「正夢でしたね」
Pom: “The dream became reality, huh?”
らく「正夢だったね」
Raku: “The dream became reality.”
ぽむ「ちょっと、じゃあ…どうする？ 夢の中に帰りますか？ やっぱ勝ちたいもんね」
Pom: “Hey, then… what do we do? Should we go back inside the dream? We still want to win, right?”
らく「そうだね」
ぽむ「ぽむたちが勝ってるとこ行こう。らくとぽむは夢の中にいきますので、おやすみ」
Pom: “Let’s go to the place where Pom and friends are winning. Raku and Pom are going into the dream, so oyasumi.”
らく「エクスプレス～」
ぽむ「夢で会おうね」
Pom: “Let’s meet up in your dreams.”
らく「おやすみなさい。よい夢を」
Raku: “Goodnight. Sweet dreams.”
In this, I felt like it was important to preserve the emphasis on Pom (+ others), because Pom loses very, very frequently, so translating it as “the place where we win” would lose some of the centering around her own experience.
たい
According to the notes, たい expresses a very personal feeling, so it’s usually used only for the first person in declarative sentences and for the second person in interrogative sentences. But it’s acceptible in these situations: in the past tense, in indirect/semi-direct speech, in explanatory situations, and in conjecture expressions.
If the verb is a transitive verb, the direct object can be marked either by が or を, with the choice depending on degree of desire. When the desire to do something is high, が is used, and when it’s low, を is used. But が can’t be used when a long element intervenes between the direct object and the verb, when the main verb is in the passive form, or when the preceding noun is not the direct object (looking at the two examples, it’s basically saying that when the を is を2-4 and not を1). In the construction Vます たがっている, が can never be used to mark the direct object.
たい can’t be used to express an invitation! In these situations, negative questions are used. I think the distinction between たい and the ほしいs has been covered earlier in this thread and also probably discussed back in the H’s, haha.
Here are a bunch of examples in a long post-match comment I just translated from TJPW's 2023.11.05 show, which was in new rookie Shino Suzuki's hometown:
Hard mode: here’s the video.
志乃「地元凱旋、ありがとうございました。デビューして1年もたたずしてこの生まれ育った街に帰ってこれて嬉しく思います。ありがとうございます。アイドルになりたいという夢を叶えるために静岡から出てきたんですけど、夢を叶え始めちゃって、出てきた静岡にこうやって帰れたことをすごく嬉しいなと思います。今、自分はプロレスで何か成し遂げていることはまったくないんですね。1回も勝ったことないし。だけど今度は何かを成し遂げて胸を張って帰ってきたいなという新しい目標ができて、これが何か次につながる大会になれたらいいなと思いました。未詩さんとシングルだったんですけど、今日は地元凱旋で気持ちが強いというか熱い思いで今日は臨んで。（ねくじぇね）トーナメントが次の大会になるんですね。未詩さんはずっとジムで一緒にいる、練習も一緒にいる。未詩さんが嫌だと思っても私が目に入ってくると思うんです。だから私のことをすごく知ってくれているんですね、デビュー前からずっとジムで会って色んな話を聞いてくれて。未詩さんとシングルできたり、次はトーナメントあるって時に大切な節目・節目に未詩さんが必ずいるなって思ってて。だから今日闘えたことは、痛いし、パワーも強いし、そういうところは自分はまだまだだと思ったけど、闘えたことをすごくすごく嬉しく思います。未詩さんにとってはすごく世話の焼ける後輩だと思うんですけど、いつかは闘って楽しかったと言ってもらえるように強くなりたいですし、未詩さんがいっぱい色んなことを教えてくれているからこそ、強くなった姿でいつか感謝や成長を未詩さんに見せたいなと思いました。
Shino: “Thank you for the show in my hometown. I’m happy to come back to the town where I was born and raised less than a year after my debut. Thank you so much! I left Shizuoka to fulfill my dream of becoming an idol, but now that I’ve started to achieve my dream, I’m so happy to be able to return to my hometown like this. I’ve yet to accomplish anything at all in pro wrestling. I’ve never won a single match. But now I have a new goal, which is to achieve something and come back home with my heart held high, and I hope that this show will lead to whatever is next for me. I had a singles match with Miu-san, and I went into it with strong feelings, with passion for performing in front of my hometown. The (Next Generation) tournament match is next. Miu-san is always with me at the gym, and we practice together, too. Even if she doesn’t want to, she can’t help but see me. That’s why she knows me so well. We’ve been meeting at the gym and she’s been listening to me talk about all sorts of things since before my debut. Having a singles match with Miu-san, and with the tournament coming up, I know that Miu-san will be there at every major turning point for me. So even though it was painful, and even though she was strong, and it made me realize how far I still have left to go, I’m so happy that I was able to fight her today. I think I’m an annoying junior from Miu-san’s perspective, but I want to become strong enough that someday she’ll say it was fun to fight me. Because Miu-san has taught me so many things, I want to show her my gratitude and show my growth by showing her how much stronger I’ve gotten.”
（いつもに増して勝ちへの執念を見せたと思うが）静岡凱旋で今日家族も見てくれたり、私をすごく応援してくれている方からいつもに増して『頑張れ』というパワーを感じたので、未詩さんという相手はキャリアもパワーも、圧倒的に私より遥か上をいくけど、こうやって応援を力に負けたくないなという気持ちがやっぱ（あった）。応援も倍に感じたので、私の負けたくない気持ちも倍になって、今日は強い相手でしたけど、諦めずに闘いきれたかなと思ってます。（この試合が自力初勝利やトーナメントにつながると思う？）本当に今日の試合は必死過ぎて記憶にないぐらいではあったんですけど、未詩さんと闘えたことがすごく大きいんですよ。熱く『向かって来い』とどしんと構えててくれたから、私もいつも以上のパワーの出し方じゃないですけど、自分のリミッターが外れる感じの執念で闘えて。こういう闘い方ってあまり自分でも出そうと思って出せないじゃないですか。そういう自分の気持ちを全面に出させてくれたのは未詩さんだったので、この気持ちの出し方や勝ちへの執念の出し方を学んだので、それでトーナメントに向かいたいなと思いました。次闘うHIMAWARIさんもパワータイプなので、今日闘えたことに意味があるなと思います。（第2回目はやりたい？）もちろん。次につながる大会にしたいのでやりたいと思うし、（東京女子が）静岡市初上陸ということだったので、もっと静岡市に東京女子の名前がこの1年で広まればいいなと思うし、自分も何かを成し遂げて胸を張って帰りたいので次もあるといいなと思います」
(I think you showed even more of a determination to win than usual)
“Since I was returning to my hometown, my family were there to watch me, and I felt that ‘ganbare!’ power from the people cheering for me even more than usual. Miu-san is so far above me both in terms of career and power, but with everyone’s support, I really felt that I didn’t want to lose. I felt double the support, so my desire not to lose was doubled in turn, and even though I was facing a strong opponent, I think I was able to fight without giving up.”
(Do you think this match will lead to your first win, or a tournament victory?)
“I felt so desperate in today’s match that I don’t even remember it, but getting to fight Miu-san was huge. She was fired up and her stance said ‘come at me!’, so I was able to fight with a lot of determination, not in a way that I brought out more power than usual, but in the sense that my limiter was off. This style of fighting, I can’t show it very well even if I intend to. It was Miu-san who pushed me to show all of my feelings on the surface, and I learned how to show my feelings and my determination to win, so that’s how I want to approach the tournament. My next opponent, HIMAWARI, is also a power type fighter, so I think it’s significant that I was able to fight someone like that today.”
(Do you want to do this a second time?)
“Of course! I want to make this the kind of show that leads to another one. This was (TJPW’s) first time in Shizuoka City, so I hope the name of TJPW spreads in Shizuoka City over the next year, and I want to achieve something and come back home with my heart held high. So I hope there’s another one.”
たまらない
I didn’t recognize this one, so I don’t think I’ve formally learned about it before! The notes describe it as an idiomatic phrase used to express the fact that some situation is unbearable in the extreme for the speaker or someone with whom they emphasize. The adjectives before て/で refer to human feelings. Also, there is no affirmative counterpart of this construction (て/で たまる doesn’t exist).
The related expressions note says that てたまらない can be replaced by て仕方がない. The only difference is the former is more emotive than the latter. But when て仕方がない is preceded by Vても, it cannot be replaced by たまらない.
I searched my translation documents, thinking that maybe I'd never seen this one, but I did in fact find one example! This was from one of the vaguely early translations I did, after Suzume faced Miu Watanabe on 2022.09.16 to see which of them would earn the right to challenge for the International Princess Championship.
Hard mode: here’s the video:
鈴芽「（あまり泣いている姿は見せないと思うが？）けっこう泣き虫かも（苦笑）。（普段と違うように感じました）でも、いつも悔しくて悔しくてっていうのはもちろんあるんですけど…今日はなんだろう。全部出し切った解放感みたいなのもちょっとあります。充実感というか。でも悔しくてたまらないです。（この夏の成長や期待はどう受け止めている？）この夏に向けてとか、夏にやったことは決して無駄じゃなくて。でもそれでも、まだまだ足りないものだらけなので。未詩さんをはじめとした先輩たちに負けないように。危険な存在になっていきたいと思います。（その足りないものは見つかった感覚はある？）でも、自分の闘い方は間違ってないというか。未詩さん相手でも今日闘えたと信じてるので。この道を突き進むってかんじです」
(I don’t think we’ve ever seen you cry this much)
Suzume: “I can be quite a crybaby.” (laughs)
(It felt different from usual)
“I always feel frustrated and disappointed, of course, but… what is it about today? Going out there and doing my best, it feels kind of freeing, or I guess fulfilling. But I can’t help but feel frustrated.”
(How do you feel about your growth and all of the expectations this summer?)
“Everything I did going into summer, and during summer, it wasn’t in vain. But even so, it wasn’t enough, in so many ways. I want to have a dangerous presence so that I don’t lose to my senpais, starting with Miu-san.”
(Do you feel like you’ve discovered what you’re lacking?)
“I don’t think my fighting style is wrong. I believe I was able to fight today even with Miu-san as my opponent, so I’m going to keep moving forward along this path.”
ために
I feel like I thought after I initially learned this that I’d have more trouble getting the different meanings confused, but I can’t recall it ever being a problem in actual practice, haha.
As the notes explain, ために expresses cause or reason when it is preceded by an Adj(い) or an Adj(な), or when the main clause describes a noncontrollable situation and/or when the ために clause is in the past tense. In these cases, it never expresses purpose. The に can be dropped if a phrase(s) intervenes between the main verb and ために.
The related expressions note points out that when ため is used to mean reason or cause, it can be replaced by から or ので. The difference is that ため is more formal than the others and is seldom used in informal conversation, which I suppose explains why I can’t recall having seen this terribly much in my wrestling translations, haha.
When ため is used to mean purpose, it can be replaced by either Vinf-nonpast のに or Vます に Vmotion. However, ために can be replaced by のに only when one does something in the process of achieving some goal, and it can only be replaced by Vます に Vmotion when ため is used with a motion. Just like the other note, the difference between ため and other markers of purpose is that ため is the most formal and least colloquial of the three.
Here's an example from the TJPW press conference on 2023.10.04 before Mahiro Kiryu and Yuki Kamifuku faced Nao Kakuta and Hikari Noa for the tag titles at Wrestle Princess:
The video for this is long as heck, so I won’t bother linking it, but here’s a link to the full transcript for the press conference.
真弥「私もデビューしてからベルトに挑戦することはあれど、一度もベルトを取ったことがないので。プロレスラーになったからにはベルトというものを持ってみたいという気持ちもありますし。で、ベルトを持ったからこその使命感、責任感みたいなもの…まだ未知の世界なんですけど。そういうものを感じて、もっともっとプロレスラーとして成長していきたいっていう気持ちがあって。そのためにベルトを獲りたいですね！ チャンスを今掴んでいると思っているので。勢いよく飛び出したいと思います」
Mahiro: “Since my debut, I’ve challenged for that belt, but I’ve never won it. Since becoming a professional wrestler, I’ve felt that desire to have a belt. After getting a belt, that sense of purpose, that sense of responsibility… that’s still an unknown world to me. I want to feel what that’s like, and I want to grow even more as a pro wrestler. That is why I want to win the belt! Because I think that now I have a chance. I want to burst out with momentum.”
たら
I’ve had a bit of trouble getting the if/when confused with this one, but mainly in translating it, I think. Sometimes it’s not entirely clear which it is from the Japanese alone…
As note 1 says, S1 always represents an antecedent and S2 a subsequence. However, the problems (for me) come from what note 2 has, which is that in S1 たら S2, it is often the case that S1 represents a condition and S2 an event which occurs under that condition. So the whole sentence basically means “when S1 is satisfied, S2 takes place”, or “S1 brings about S2”.
たら means “when” if S1 is a certainty; if not, たら means “if”. もし before S1 たら makes sentences unambiguous because it always means “if S1”.
S2 can be a command, a request, a suggestion, an invitation, or a volitional sentence. S1 たら S2 can also be used in counterfactual situations.
When S2 represents a past action, the action cannot be one intentionally taken by the agent after the action or event represented by S1. I don’t think I knew this about it?
Lots of related expressions for this! In S1 たら S2, if the event in S1 precedes the event in S2, those events can be past events. This is also the case with S1 と4 S2, but not with S1 ば S2 and S1 なら S2.
With S1 たら S2, S1 ば S2, and S1 なら S2, S2 can be a command, a request, a suggestion, an invitation, or a volitional sentence, though it can’t be with S1 と S2. However, in all three of those cases, the meaning is a bit different.
S1 たら S2, S1 ば S2, and S1 なら S2 can all be used in counterfactual situations, but S1 と S2 can’t be used in such situations except for the idiomatic expression S と いい/よかった.
There are a billion たらs in my TJPW translations, but here's a recent-ish example from their 2023.10.27 show, after the six 2023 rookies had a tag match previewing the rookie tournament that was about to start. Can you figure out if this is an "if" or a "when"?
Hard mode: here’s the video.
凍雅「負けちゃったけどねくじぇねトーナメントの前哨戦みたいな感じなので、（ハルは）1回戦で当たるHIMAWARIさんに負けちゃったけど…」
Toga: “We lost, but since it was like a preview match for the Next Generation tournament, (Haru) lost to HIMAWARI-san, who she’ll be facing in the first round…”
ハル「HIMAWARIさんに今日直接取られてしまったけど、次は負けないので」
Haru: “I lost directly to HIMWAWARI-san today, but I’m not gonna lose next time.”
志乃「ハルが負けないで上がってきたら私になるんですけど、（自力で）勝ったことないし、みんな今日の試合で一番目立ってやるとか、勢いつけてやるとかいう意気込みをしていたし、今日は痛いほどそれを感じました。自分は今置いていかれているけど、今日の試合でもう置いていかれないぞと決めたので。私は置いていかれないで駆け抜けて優勝したいと思います。諦めないです。弱いと思ってんな。ここから強いのを見せつけたいと思います」
Shino: “If Haru doesn’t lose and goes on to the next round, she’ll be facing me. I’ve never won (on my own) before, and everyone was driven to stand out the most in today’s match, and I felt that so strongly today that it hurt. Right now, everyone’s getting ahead of me, but after today’s match, I decided that I’m not going to be left behind anymore. I’m not going to be left behind, and I’m going to catch up and get past everyone and win the tournament. I won’t give up. Don’t think I’m weak. From here, I’m going to show that I’m strong.”
たらどうですか
Short entry for this! I don’t think I have much to comment on, either. I did think it was interesting that this is an idiomatic phrase derived from the S1 たら S2 construction, expressing a suggestion.
The informal version is Vinf-past らどう？, and more polite versions are Vinf-past らどうでしょう(か), Vinf-past らいかがですか, and Vinf-past らいかがでしょう(か). I don’t think I’ve seen a single one of these in TJPW, haha.
The related expressions note says that ほうがいい also expresses suggestion, but this phrase is close to a command (especially when it is preceded by Vinf-past), and so it is therefore stronger than たらどうですか.
Home Thread
At least I know where to look up it’s meaning when I come across it
. Still planning on getting as caught up as possible before the next club, though!
. Then again, I’ve been reading this dictionary long enough, I’ve actually learned a whole lot more about onomatopoeia since the club began… I don’t think I knew the different types at the time, whereas now it feels so obvious, haha. I kind of wish they’d just use the Japanese words, honestly… If we’re going to have to memorize specialized terminology, we might as well just memorize the actual Japanese words 
Just plopping my notes here