少女終末旅行: Chapter 5 Discussion

I wonder if anyone can help me understand とかないとか on page 87:

私たちの足元の
ずーっと下にまだ
あるとかないとか

I think I get most of it ("[the ocean] still exists far beneath our feet"), but I can’t figure out what that last bit is doing.

Thanks!

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I read this as

ある とか
ない とか

I thought of it as “maybe/sometimes there is something beneath our feet, maybe there isn’t” but I could be totally off here…

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Really enjoyed this chapter!

The appearance of the fish meant that they aren’t the only living this in this world!

Having read one of the posts in this thread, I now get why ドコ on the last page is in katakana for emphasis, because it seemed like どこ but my first thought seeing katakana was that it was a word I needed to look up…

A question about the last panels on p94:

Summary

I’m not sure what the 上層の方 and 下の方 meant, so didn’t understand those two panels at all…

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上層の方 = upper stratum
上の方 (not 下) = upwards

The relevance of these terms will probably become clearer in later chapters.

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It truly is gratifying starting to be able to enjoy entertainment in a different language. That has been happening a lot recently for me, so my motivation has went up a good bit.

I was a bit late reading the last chapter, but I’ve read chapter 4 and 5 now. I haven’t had many questions. A little bit of that is because I’ve been pre-studying the vocabulary, but I think that I’m also not analyzing the sentences closely enough and I think I’m going to slow down to combat that. I’ll probably be back once I reread some things.

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Yeah, I feel like I do that sometimes too. A bit of “yep, I’ve got the gist of this panel. Moving on”.

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Wow this got really hard really fast :smile: But I think I figured it out…not quite sure though…I updated the vocab sheet, because I thought I was right…if not someone can delete/edit accordingly

These aren’t really spoilers so not going to hide this…

First on Page 84 and Page 85
Page 84 First Panel the left most bubble…
流れて is there … I believe this is correct on the vocab as 流れる (intransitive)

Page 85 Second Panel left most bubble…it looks the same but isn’t quite! (wasn’t in the vocab list - added it) 流されたら … I believe the correct verb is 流す (transitive)

It’s subtle and the meanings are basically the same, but it was confusing when trying to make sure I understood the conjugation on page 85

Might be a spoiler (maybe not) but I’ll try to be nice :slight_smile:

Page 85

I think 流されたら = passive (+tara) form of 流す (to be washed/swept away)
passive form 流される (be/get washed/swept away)…
drop the ru and to the tara form = 流されたら (if be/get washed/swept away).

Have I made this overly complicated (gotten ‘carried’ away…silly pun) or am I understanding this correctly?

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Yep, that’s basically correct.
Just one remark: 流す is “to wash away”.
(I think you made the mistake from thinking too much about writing the passive form next :wink: )

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Now only if I could figure out the English grammar… (native speaker … hence can’t really ever explain the difference…just sort of know what sounds natural)

I think I know it when I hear it…until I read grammar girl and umm…I know 何もない! :roll_eyes:

I couldn’t think of a good example with this verb either…

I read the book [active] vs the book was read. [passive]
read must drive non natives insane!.. I think read = hito/bito/jin/nin! hehe

The book washed away. (I think that’s active…not that I think about it - maybe it’s passive? so confused…but heck these sorts of grammar things I learned 30 years ago…beats me what it’s supposed to be)…I’m much better at math. Can’t figure out how to write this in the passive form. :grin:.

Then I look at the manga and if this is the transitive verb I’m looking for an を to mark object…but it’s colloquial speech so I’m lost! Oh well…

For those of us grammar challenged, can someone make a simple sentence with 流す (heck why not both of them 流れる) active and passive (in English). I know active/passive is separate from the whole transitive intransitive thing. I remember reading it somewhere a while back on Tofugu.

Hoping this might be helpful to the more grammar challenged among us…also if you happen to know of a transitive/intransitive pair we read already that would make a good learning example, please share :wink:

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The difference between active and passive voice is definitely harder to distinguish when the verb is intransitive. Here’s my understanding (my Japanese grammar is not very good, corrections welcome):

“The book washed away.” (active voice, intransitive verb)
"本が流れた。”
“The book was washed away.” (passive, intransitive)
“本が流れられた。”
I feel like the Japanese version of one of these must be wrong. The definition of 流れる already sounds passive, so is passive conjugation even necessary?

“I washed the book away.” (active, transitive)
"私が本を流した。”
“The book was washed away by me.” (passive, transitive)
”本が私に流された。”
Second example is passive because the thing being acted upon by the verb is the subject of the sentence (instead of the object, as it would be in active voice).

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This is absolutely perfect! and welcome … what a great first post! You’re a rock star :star::sparkles::tada::confetti_ball:!

Also…yeah this verb in particular is sort of weird where it already sounds passive…hence I struggled for a long time and couldn’t figure out how to make a proper sentence in English. (lousy native speaker I am)

This is similar to the same challenge I’m still working through in reading most things beyond the basic general sentence structure…learning how to go from a literal out of word order/broken English to natural reading and correct meaning in English. I know the more I practice the easier it will get. You’re answer really helps a lot!

I’ll transcribe these examples into my notes tomorrow…so when I get stuck again I can use these as base sentence structures for similar difficult trans/intrans pairs. :wink:

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Chapter 6 is here! I refused to make the new chapter thread until I was caught up.

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I really this explanation!

I’m trying to understand how the particle とか became maybe. Might you be able to explain how you got to your reading?

Of course I went looking before asking…this is what I found on BP I found this:
image
Went through the example sentences and they don’t quite line up with the “maybe” usage that way.

Looked at Yellow Basic Grammer (Makino/Tsutsui) book and it had a similar explanation…

Then just popping it into google the translation (I have no idea) comes up:
image

This is an odd one …would really like to understand this a bit better :wink:

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Well… sorry if I confused you here… I don’t have anything factual to base this on. I just translated it a bit liberally, I guess. That’s why I gave “maybe/sometimes” as my translation.
My thought process goes like this: if it is, among other things, and if it is not, among other things, then it maybe is (because if it is and also is not, then it might be the case that the speaker just doesn’t know), or it sometimes is (because if it is and is not, then this cannot take place at the same time, so sometimes it is, and sometimes it is not).

(I was secretly hoping that somebody would kick in and correct me, but nothing happened :wink: So let me find out more about it myself.)

Some interesting data points:

This seems to be something like a set expression, as it is even a Twitter hashtag: https://twitter.com/hashtag/あるとかないとか?src=hash (that does not help with the understanding, I just found it interesting)

Here the translation seems to hint a meaning “… or something”: https://hinative.com/ja/questions/152717

This is the most interesting one: https://ejje.weblio.jp/sentence/content/“とかない”
Sentence 2 gives the translation “whether or not”.
Also, it seems to indicate that only とかない is the fixed expression. So now I’m wondering whether in the final とか maybe actually と is the quotation particle and か is the question marker?

Same here :joy_cat:

As always, it looked quite easy at the onset, but then turned out to get more tricky the more I think about it…

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You didn’t confuse me at all…honestly it was rather helpful…w/o your translation I would have been lost and asked the question anyway :slight_smile:

I’m with you in that I am ちょっと suspicious that is a set phrase…but didn’t find anything obvious when I looked around.

I’m always secretly hoping someone asked the questions before me. I’m still on chapter 5…I’m behind so if it hasn’t been asked yet…I’m probably going to have to ask haha!

The resources you found only make me more curious now! so many various ways of parsing it. Oh and since we don’t have enough variations…here’s an English translation of that bubble in the manga

image

so…

maybe yes maybe no
or something
whether or not
supposedly
among other things
for example
such as
and the google version (I have no idea)…I think this is the definition of irony haha

I’m going to ask around tomorrow to see if I can get a straight answer on this. I think maybe yes/maybe no and or something and supposedly are all in the same realm of translation…but I agree it would be really nice to actually understand what’s happening with this exactly, set phrase or not.

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:see_no_evil: :see_no_evil: :see_no_evil:

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Oh, are you calling for more variations? Here you go :wink:

This amazing website was just mentioned in the Absolute Beginner Bookclub, so I mainly want to share it with you all as well.

https://ichi.moe/cl/qr/?q=私たちの足元の+ずーっと下にまだ+あるとかないとか&r=htr

As a side product, it destructures the sentence in yet another way :wink: Namely that とかない is the negative of the verb とく. Of course, there are multiple verbs that are pronounced とく. None of them hit me as the ultimate answer to our puzzle. Or maybe this is just a parsing accident…

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It’s just a prasing accident.

Going up the discussion, it’s indeed ある+とか+ない+とか

Positiveとかnegativeとか is way to avoid making a decision about “positive”. The “or something” from the English translation seems like a pretty good way to carry that meaning.

In French, we have a similar expression (p’tet bien qu’oui, p’tet bien qu’non).
Edit: I guess the English version would be “it may or may not be the case (that)” (that sounds too formal though)

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Since we were all wondering and didn’t have anything definitive yesterday…sent a picture of the page along with the question to my sensei on skype last night…she answered this morning and said this is how she would translate it:

I would translate it like this " (They said) it might be or not might be still under the deep in the ground." So, basically there are two different/opposite rumors/hearsays about the matter, but nobody knows which one is true. I hope it helps. (-:

So it looks like you were right on with your first liberal translation… I have my call with her in a few hours. If I learn anything more that’s useful I’ll share.

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Thanks for all the work on this! :slight_smile:

I’m curious about where the sense of “supposedly”/"(they said)" comes from. Does とか imply hearsay?

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