大海原と大海原 ・Wadanohara and the Great Blue Sea Absolute Beginners Book Club Chapter 1 Thread

[Shunrin]

I’d describe those panels more as ‘in medias res’ than a flashback. It’s somewhat difficult to describe what’s going on without getting into spoilers because a) the guy hasn’t been properly introduced yet and b) he’s at the center of a couple major plot twists in the story. Basically, the guy has just told her that he is about to leave her, potentially forever, and she doesn’t want him to leave. Then she remembers that there’s something important she needs to tell him related to why she doesn’t want him to leave.

If you really want more context than that (Warning: MASSIVE SPOILERS INSIDE)

The boy is 鮫吉/Samekichi, Wadanohara’s fourth familiar. At the beginning of the story, he is believed to be a traitor who stole an important artifact protecting the Sea Kingdom from an evil version of the sea called the Sea of Death. In reality, he was loyal to Wadanohara all along and the actual traitor framed him for the crime. Wadanohara and Samekichi were there when the theft occured and knew who the actual traitor was, but the traitor cursed Wadanohara to lose her memories of the theft, and that her mind would get destroyed if she remembered. So Samekichi pretends to be the traitor to drive her away from the sea and keep her from remembering.

The actual traitor eventually reveals themself and opens a gateway that releases Sea of Death, Wadanohara gets her memories back, and everyone realizes Samekichi wasn’t the traitor all along. At the very end of the story, Wadanohara confronts the traitor, but he attacks her and escapes back into the Sea of Death. That’s when Samekichi tells her that to save the Sea Kingdom, he’ll go into the Sea of Death after the traitor and seal the rift from the other side. Which means he’ll be trapped in a hellscape and potentially separated from her forever.

Which leads to the scene in the beginning, but with more context:

Then she has some flashbacks relating to how he promised to protect her from the traitor’s curse (not including those screenshots to limit spoilers) and some more flashbacks relating to the time they’ve spent together in the past:

Which leads to the “more important thing” she’s finally realized she needs to tell him:

But honestly, if you don’t understand exactly what’s going on in that scene, I wouldn’t worry about it too much because you’re not supposed to understand the significance of that page at this point. By the end of the manga it will be a lot more understandable.

[2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz]

@Alphatt

On page 17 メモカ says: いつまで寝てるのよ！ as shes trying to wake up wadanohara. Is that simply a contraction of 寝ている meaning “how long will you keep sleeping”?

Also, is the の the explaining particle looking for an answer from wadanohara?

Yes, in informal settings it’s very common to abbreviate ている to てる.
Yes, that の is an “explication-tone” の, since she’s asking for a reason.

[luxnocturne]

This might be a dumb question, but I got a bit confused about the timeline here. I understand that Wadanohara was dreaming, but when she wakes up on the boat she seems to be only with her familiars, and Kuromaki the witch is off by herself… in the prologue Wadanohara says something about having to go back home and now she is… so is chapter 1 some time after or before the prologue? I’m lost lol

[chrisosaurus]

@luxnocturne

in the prologue Wadanohara says something about having to go back home and now she is… so is chapter 1 some time after or before the prologue?

Chapter 1 is some time after the Prologue.

[capmor]

@toadkarter

Page 20

いぢめじゃないわよ

So, I presume that this is supposed to be the negative form of “to bully”, but then why does it not read いじめじゃないわよ instead? Is it just a style thing?

メモカ appears to use simple speech/baby talk, so I would say this is a stylistic thing to make them appear more cute/babylike.

For more info on baby talk from Chi’s Sweet Home:
チーズスイートホーム Reading Club
A video on Casual Japanese and Baby Talk in Chi’s Sweet Home

[Alphatt]

Got two panels from page 19.

I’m not clear on the entire second panel here.
いろいろあって遠い国へ行っていたんだけれど…

I thought this meant, “We went to various far away places, but…”
My question is about ある in the て-form here. I took いろいろあって遠い国 as meaning “various existing far away countries”, but couldn’t ある be just in it’s dictionary form. The only other translation I can come up with is “To various existing and far away countries”

Why isn’t wadanohara just saying いろいろ遠い国, what distinction is あって adding to this part?

Second small question: Is けれど in んだけれど the same as けど just said in a different way? Also I’ve heard before that んだけど is a set phrase, but I’m not sure what it means. Or is this just a case of her already explaining stuff with んだ and けど is just stuck on after, quite simply meaning “,but…” before continuing on to say, they had urgent business?

急用で使い魔のみんなと故郷の海へ帰ってきたんだ
Here I do not understand the function of と.
急用で使い魔のみんなと
I translated this part as. “With urgent business, all the familiars and…” と being and here.
故郷の海へ帰ってきたんだ
I translated this part as.
"…to the hometown of the sea, we returned.

Obviously “With urgent business, all the familiars and to the hometown of the sea, we returned.” Doesn’t quite make sense. I took it as meaning. “But I along with all the familiars, returned home to our ocean hometown, on urgent business.” I’m pretty confused about this though.

Secondly on the bottom left panel. Wadanohara is talking about steering the ship with her magical powers. After this Memoka is commenting:
舵のない、船って 便利でいいわネ. To me this is completely unclear.
舵のない
I do not understand the のない structure. I thought this sentence meant: “There is no helm/rudder”. But why isn’t it 舵がない then? “The rudder’s non existence” sounds weird to me. Secondly I don’t understand 船って is there some kind of verb involving boats and this is the te from of it? I couldn’t find any…
便利でいいわネ This was confusing to me as well. As it looks like the てもいい structure, with て becoming で, but I don’t understand what it means here, as it doesn’t seem to be granting permission.
Is it possible that the で here is just the particle meaning ‘by’ or ‘with’
“Boating with convenience is good, isn’t it?”

Lastly, why is ネ in katakana in わネ? emphasis? And why is Wadanohara confused by this comment?

Sorry I know it’s a lot of questions, thank you so much if you just answer parts of it.

[chrisosaurus]

I’m still very new to this so please take everything I say with a grain of salt, and if someone disagrees probably listen to them over me. (Edited as I slowly expanded my answer).

@Alphatt

Second small question: Is けれど in んだけれど the same as けど

Absolutely right.

To try get a more authoritative answer I checked my copy of A Dictionary Of Basic Japanese Grammar which says that root entry is けれども with A けれども B meaning although A, B.
It then goes on to say that the informal versions of けれども from least to most formal are けど ＜ けども ＜ けれど.

@Alphatt

んだけど is a set phrase, but I’m not sure what it means. Or is this just a case of her already explaining stuff with んだ and けど

I think this is correct, we can view んだけど as a contraction of のだけど, with the の being explanatory/reason and だ being the copula.

Many dictionaries (e.g. Jisho, and my grammar dict) list だけど as an entry, I think it is copula + けど but I’m not 100% confident.

@Alphatt

Here I do not understand the function of と.

と has lots of different meanings, here I think と means “with”
For example 友達とレストランに行きました means I went to a/the restaurant with my friend(s).

で also has lots of different meanings, one of them is for “expressing weak casual relations” (this is the phrasing used in A Dictionary Of Basic Japanese Grammar), the English equivalents for this usage of で are “because of; due to; because; and”.

So I think a very rough translation for this sentence fragment might be (page 19)

“Due to urgent business with (all my) familiars …”
or
“On urgent business with (all my) familiars …”

@Alphatt

Secondly I don’t understand 船って is there some kind of verb involving boats and this is the te from of it? I couldn’t find any…

Here I think って is actually a tricksy は like particle (see below for more on this fragment).

@Alphatt

I do not understand the のない structure […] why isn’t it […]がない

This I am absolutely not confident on, so best we have someone else weigh in at some point, and for now take everything I say with handfuls of salt.

I think if we said Xがない that would be a phrase (noun-が-verb) which would mean “there is no X”
But here we are using it in front of a noun (to modify that noun) so XのないY is “a Y without an X” or “a X-less Y” - with this whole unit itself still being a noun (or noun-phrase)
The closest English equivalent of のない is probably “-less”

If we look at this whole sentence fragment 舵のない船って…

In English this gives us

A rudder-less ship は …
or
A helm-less ship は …

@Alphatt

This was confusing to me as well. As it looks like the てもいい structure, with て becoming で, but I don’t understand what it means here, as it doesn’t seem to be granting permission.
Is it possible that the で here is just the particle meaning ‘by’ or ‘with’

I don’t think this is related to ともいい, instead I think this で is more like “and” (same で meaning as above I think).
If you combine this with my comments about on のない and って you might be able to get the sentence working.

@Alphatt

why is ネ in katakana in わネ? emphasis

Yeah I think so, this character’s speech in particular is quite quirky.

@Alphatt

And why is Wadanohara confused by this comment?

Not sure, I also found that a bit confusing.

If I was forced to guess

If earlier 舵 meant helm, then a helm-less ship wouldn’t be able to be steered, but… magic so not sure that checks out.

@Alphatt

My question is about ある in the て-form here. I took いろいろあって

I think this is the only part of your question I didn’t touch on, and I don’t have a confident answer sorry. Hopefully someone else can chime in.

I did find a Jisho entry for いろいろあって, but I’m not confident on it. In my initial reading I didn’t pay much attention to this あって, but it is a great question that I’d love to know the answer to.

[luxnocturne]

@Alphatt

I’m not clear on the entire second panel here.
いろいろあって遠い国へ行っていたんだけれど…

I went with the jisho entry for いろいろあって and interpreted it as “for various reasons we were going to a distant country (or distant countries), but due to urgent business I am returning with my familiars to our sea hometown”

@chrisosaurus

Chapter 1 is some time after the Prologue.

thanks for the clarification

[chrisosaurus]

@luxnocturne

thanks for the clarification

np

@luxnocturne

I went with the jisho entry for いろいろあって and interpreted it as “for various reasons we were going to a distant country (or distant countries), but due to urgent business I am returning with my familiars to our sea hometown”

On second thought, I actually like this, and I do think it fits better than plan 色々 meaning various - since we have only seem go to one country rather than multiple. So maybe the Jisho entry is fine and I can retract my uncertainty =p

[Alphatt]

so basiaclly the で here is more like a て-form for nouns? te -form joining sentences ( Genki I Chapter 7) – Japanese

Meaning and in the same sense that て-form can?

[chrisosaurus]

I think in theory this で is the Te form of the copula (verb) だ /です, although I’m not sure if that practically matters.

A Dictionary Of Basic Japanese Grammar uses the phrase “apparently derived from the te-form of です”.

So when you have two sentences
Aだ. B… you can (sometimes) join them as AでB… which means “A and B …”.

See this stackoverflow question

I’m still not 100% confident that this is what’s happening here as it’s still a little unusual to me, it’s just the closest I was able to get.

[bearytoast]

Based on @Micki 's recommendation I’ve added a poll to the top post to see how reading is going for everyone.

[2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz]

@Alphatt

I thought this meant, “We went to various far away places, but…”
My question is about ある in the て-form here. I took いろいろあって遠い国 as meaning “various existing far away countries”, but couldn’t ある be just in it’s dictionary form. The only other translation I can come up with is “To various existing and far away countries”

Why isn’t wadanohara just saying いろいろ遠い国, what distinction is あって adding to this part?

luxnocturne already mentioned this, but this is just いろいろ + ある. It literally means “various (things) happened” (see meaning 5 of ある in jisho). あって is in te-form to connect with the rest of the sentence.

“A lot happened and… (we went to a distant country)” Note that there’s no specification whether their trip went to many distant countries or just one; the いろいろ only applies to ある.

@Alphatt

Second small question: Is けれど in んだけれど the same as けど just said in a different way? Also I’ve heard before that んだけど is a set phrase, but I’m not sure what it means. Or is this just a case of her already explaining stuff with んだ and けど is just stuck on after, quite simply meaning “,but…” before continuing on to say, they had urgent business?

Let’s start with けれど and んだけれど. These are not exactly the same thing. んだ is the abbreviation of のだ which a separate grammar point called “explication tone の”. It’s being used here because in this scene she’s currently giving an explication.

So んだけれど is just basically んだ + けれど, but nothing mandates that they have to be used together or anything; as far as I’m aware they don’t need to be treated like a set phrase. んだ can be combined with any other grammatical element that can follow the copula だ, that’s why you can use んだけど too.

@Alphatt

Secondly on the bottom left panel. Wadanohara is talking about steering the ship with her magical powers. After this Memoka is commenting:
舵のない、船って 便利でいいわネ. To me this is completely unclear.
舵のない
I do not understand the のない structure. I thought this sentence meant: “There is no helm/rudder”. But why isn’t it 舵がない then? “The rudder’s non existence” sounds weird to me.

To add to chrisosaurus explanation. 舵のない is a sub-clause that is describing 船. It’s very common to replace が for の inside a sub-clause; so this is equivalent to 舵がない. You can think of Xがない as a set phrase if that helps you, but I feel it’s easier to realize that ない is simply the negative form of ある - it indicates the lack of existence of the subject, which in this sub-clase would be 舵.

Another note: in your transcription, I see you added a comma after ない - in general I’d advise against adding commas that aren’t there in a dialogue balloon, since the end of a vertical line doesn’t necessarily mean an actual point of silence in speech like a comma would, and it might make parsing the sentence more difficult. 船 cannot be disconnected from 舵のない because that would be like saying in English “Red, pencil” instead of “Red pencil”.

@Alphatt

Secondly I don’t understand 船って is there some kind of verb involving boats and this is the te from of it? I couldn’t find any…

って is the informal quotation marker that behaves the same way that the と-quotation marker. Like chrisosaurus says, you can (in informal speech) use って in a similar way you would the topic-marker は. 「 (Talking about) “Ships that have no rudder”… they are convenient and nice, right?」

As you can see, it kind of works like a quotation.

@Alphatt

便利でいいわネ This was confusing to me as well. As it looks like the てもいい structure, with て becoming で, but I don’t understand what it means here, as it doesn’t seem to be granting permission.
Is it possible that the で here is just the particle meaning ‘by’ or ‘with’

で here is the same te-form of the copula だ that was mentioned before, and can be used to connect two sentences. In this case we have two part, one that says “便利だ。” (it’s convenient) and “いい” (it’s good). To connect them, we just use the te-form of だ, which is で, and we get 便利でいい (it’s convenient AND good). As chirsosaurus mentioned this can sometimes imply a light causal relation ship (it’s good BECAUSE it’s convenient), but it doesn’t always happen.

[Jaimejo]

Thanks everyone who helped work out this page (that Alphatt was diving into)! When I read it I felt I got the overall jist of it, but breaking it down into real pieces was a lot of fun. I think all my questions have been answered for this bit already

@Alphatt

And why is Wadanohara confused by this comment?

This is just a guess:

I’m not sure of the underlying reason, but perhaps Wadanohara is confused because what the familiar is saying sounds really positive (it’s a smooth ride, afterall), but he looks pretty flat-faced while saying it, like maybe he’s not altogether pleased by the fact? [ ] Perhaps we get more of his thoughts later (I haven’t read past this page yet) Maybe (if I had to guess) he’s being sarcastic - like it should be smooth sailing with her magic running the boat, yet they encounter enough trouble to outweigh the good in that

[coolsday]

Page 18
So I have a couple of questions for this page.

The first question is メモカ saying わだっち to Wadanohara. This word occurs multiple times throughout the chapter too and it is always directed towards Wadanohara. I’m thinking this わだっち word is a play on her name, but can someone confirm?

Second question is: もっと優しく起こしてよ. I translated this as “Please wake me up more gently”. What is the く doing in between 優しい and 起こす? It seems like its connecting an adjective with a verb? How does that work?

Last question is: なに言ってんのよ早く着替えてらっしゃい. I get this sentence’s meaning but I am confused on how to use the 〜てらっしゃい part. How to use it and what does it mean?

Thank you!

[gricola]

@coolsday

わだっち

I’m guessing this is more like a nickname that plays on Wadanohara’s name and the honorific suffix - ちゃん.

[capmor]

@coolsday

What is the く doing in between 優しい and 起こす? It seems like its connecting an adjective with a verb? How does that work?

You’re correct! It’s 優しい in its connective form.
To make an adjective connective, remove the final い and attach く.

Here is a Tofugu article about it. ← The nuance of this article is somewhat different from what is being discussed, please see 2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz’s post below!

@coolsday

Last question is: なに言ってんのよ早く着替えてらっしゃい. I get this sentence’s meaning but I am confused on how to use the 〜てらっしゃい part. How to use it and what does it mean?

I can’t find anything specific on this, so someone else may have better information, but it appears to be attaching to the て form of the verb and asking you to “please do.” As to why you would choose this over ください or お願いします I’m unsure.

[2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz]

@coolsday

Second question is: もっと優しく起こしてよ. I translated this as “Please wake me up more gently”. What is the く doing in between 優しい and 起こす? It seems like its connecting an adjective with a verb? How does that work?

I have a different view than capmor’s regarding this. My understanding is that the Tofugu article is talking about a literary and more poetic form of i-adjectives that can link to other adjectives or other sentences (e.g., おいしくあまい => delicious and sweet). However, that doesn’t seem to be what’s happening in page 18 of this manga.

優しく起こす is using 優しい in it’s adverbial form. This changes an adjective that normally modifies a noun (優しい人 => kind person) into a adverb that allows you to modify a verb (優しく起こす => to wake up kindLY or softLY). It’s very similar to using LY with an adjective in English: quick (adjective) => quickLY (adverb).

@coolsday

Last question is: なに言ってんのよ早く着替えてらっしゃい. I get this sentence’s meaning but I am confused on how to use the 〜てらっしゃい part. How to use it and what does it mean?

I am not very confident about this one, but I believe this is the abbreviation of ていらっしゃい. いらっしゃる is just a very formal way to say 行く or 来る. So here we would have 着替えてくる => get changed and come (outside).

[IzCreature]

I’m afriad I’m starting to lag behind due to having a rough few days… Maybe I’ll be able to catch up before we move to the next chapter.

Page 15

This one was tricky. I think I need to stop trying to untangle parts of a sentence (ie stuff marked by を) without trying to read the whole sentence first.

Anyways since I wrote this all out on paper here is my rough translation.

And here’s my smoother english translation.
“But…that much?
That’s not it… There’s something more important I should have conveyed. I still forgot something.
I…”

Which, from what I can tell, alligns with what others have said.

[VikingSchism]

Just got done - think everything I might have wanted to discuss has been covered fairly well (mainly just the first couple of pages)