それでも歩は寄せてくる | Week 5 Discussion ♟

Japanese Language Book Clubs
21

These used to plague me to no end (before I started reading). But now when I see them, since they show up so often, I have a feel for the specific meaning of each one. As you say, it becomes clearer sooner or later.

Page 61

The first thing for this panel is I think the two thought balloons are separate sentences. (I don’t recall if anyone mentioned this already.) The first sentence is “unfinished” because it’s clear what would follow (at least to a Japanese reader?) Unfinished sentences perplexed me initially, until I realized we use them in English as well (although not nearly as frequently).

That said, what’s with 「(noun)しようと」? We have 「(noun)する」 meaning to do (the action of) the noun. And する is in the volitional form, しよう. This is followed by と, which often has a verb after such as 言(い)う or 思(おも)う, alongside various other possibilities.

For 思う, I learned at one point that this can only be used for one’s own thoughts, but I’ve never paid attention when reading to see if it gets used to express someone else’s thoughts. Thus, I’d consider this likely isn’t 思う, with the understanding that I may be wrong.

Another possibility is する is the unspoken verb. I thought I saw this mentioned above, but don’t see it offhand. In this situation, と＋する is used to mean “trying to do”. To expand on that:

Consider the sentence:
「ちゃんと手紙で返事しよう」

Here, the verb at the end is “intend to respond” (返事(へんじ) + to do + volitional).

Next is the quote-marking と:
「ちゃんと手紙で返事しよう」と

And finally add our verb at the end:
「ちゃんと手紙で返事しよう」とする

This gives a meaning something like:
To do “intend to properly respond by letter”.

When saying someone is doing an intended action, the meaning is that they are attempting to do something.

「しかも ちゃんと手紙で返事しようと」

“What’s more, he’s attempting to properly respond by letter.”

Note that this is the same meaning as with 思(おも)う, except there instead of “attempt to do”, it’s “think to attempt to do”. For example, if you try something and it fails, you might state what you intended and add と思(おも)った to say you “thought you’d attempt” it.

So, is する the missing verb here? I’m not certain, but that’s what I’m leaning toward. If it were Ayumu himself speaking, I’d learn a bit more toward 思(おも)う.

I believe the “posted deleted by” only shows for 24 hours, then the post removes completely. No need to try any clean-up on what’s already been posted (unless you want to), but now you know for future reference =D

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Ah, so the する can be dropped? I wasn’t totally certain on that. (I floated the possibility of it above, but with low confidence.)

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I think the する (after volitional + と) can be dropped when it’s clear what the meaning is, but I’m not completely certain. If anyone with higher certainty says otherwise, I’ll go with that.

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about the し usage, i read it like “you know…” or “so…” like in this second source under point 4 colloquial usage
https://maggiesensei.com/2014/07/10/how-to-use-〜し-shi/

i’m not particularly sure if it was used like it was described in the first source, with the consequence part omitted, ain’t knowledgable enough to give a real judgement on that, but i still think the meaning above fits.

still, always take everything i say with a massive grain of salt, sure i’ve read a few manga and watched JP subbed anime by now, but i’m basically still at a very superficial level of grammatical understanding, with only knowing lots of grammar points in their “dictionary form” basically.

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I’ve seen it dropped before but I haven’t managed to find any references about it yet :frowning: but yea I think it can be dropped as well

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In the spirit of trying to understand everything…

Page 59, first panel

いえーい しょーぎー！

Does this mean something like “Yeah shogi!”? If so, how does 「いえーい」 fit with this?

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It’s like “Yay!”

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Thanks for the explanation!

I had a talk with my tutor today and asked her about that panel, and she pretty much immediately said that that’s しようとしている with the している part omitted. So it sounds like your interpretation is right on the money.

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Thanks for getting the confirmation!

I was focused on whether it may be する that I didn’t even consider expanding it to する＋て＋いる, which makes a lot more sense considering he’s currently in the act of attempting to write it.

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Just finished chapter 8. I had a couple of questions this go-around!

Pg. 69

Just want to make sure I’m interpreting this sentence correctly (it’s pretty shogi-heavy, and I have decidedly NOT been doing enough shogi stuff to be any good at understanding it yet.)

「私が龍で王手したとき金でうけるべきだったなー」

私が = I, with subject marker
龍で = Promoted Rook, with で acting as a “with,” I think?
王手した = Check, with a verb attached, so I think it’s “put you in check”
とき = when
金で = Gold General
受ける = to take
べき = should (first time I’ve seen this/noticed it)
だったなー= closing bit of the verb with a な sentence ender

So how I interpreted this:

“When I put you in check with my promoted rook, you should have taken it with your gold general.”

Is that correct?

The following sentence also applies into it, I think, and becomes,

“Then you wouldn’t have been blocked/cornered right away.”

Pg. 71

Another one that I’m a little uncertain of. I think I catch the meaning, but don’t quite get why it gets there.

「相手に触れなきゃ妨害もありなんだ」

相手に= Opponent, with に particle. This particle still can throw me sometimes, but I think it’s the one that’s essentially “by” or “from” (indicating a source for causative verbs)
触れなきゃ = to touch, with なきゃ ending indicating “must”
妨害も= interference, with も particle. I’m not really sure what the も particle is doing here, and it is my main source of confusion.
ありなんだ = I think this is a contraction of ありないのだ, and the use of a “to be” verb is sorta throwing me off my groove here, also

Ultimately, I took the impression that the sentence means something along the lines of, “You mustn’t be touching nor interfering with your opponent.”

Is the も the inclusive も in that case (giving me the nor)? I thought that was really only used for nouns, not two verbs, which is why I’m a bit confused. Maybe I misunderstood that. I’m also confused why it would be after 妨害, but not the 触れなきゃ.

I also had to sorta force that “be” in there, and I don’t feel comfortable with it at all. Just would appreciate a little feedback, overall. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

Plot Talk

I love how Urushi intends to just take it easy with the 将棋崩し, but the moment that it seems like Ayumu is gonna be competitive, she immediately becomes competitive herself. I also find it funny that she immediately resorted to playing a little dirty, and how indignant she got when she was blatantly ignored because he was so focused.

Her being almost annoyed with him for not bothering to try and mess with her back also had me laughing. Got herself all worked up and worn out for nothing. :stuck_out_tongue:

These two have a great dynamic that is very entertaining. I am enjoying this manga just as much as I enjoy Takagi-san, so I’ll probably continue with this series also (at a minimum, I’ll read volume 2, since I got it when it was free, so no reason not to), and I’ll definitely watch the anime when it comes out! Maybe by then I’ll be ready to do it with JP subs instead of English. Motivation to try and increase my listening practice even more!~

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I think you pretty much got page 69.

71

相手に触れなきゃ =As long as you don’t touch the opponent
妨害もありなんだ = obstruction is also allowed.

The なきゃ is short for ないと. Just like __ないと行けない means “If I don’t do __, then that’s bad/unacceptable/no good”, This is saying “If I don’t do ___ (in this case, touch the opponent), then (second part of sentence)”.

The あり in the second part is this. The なん I think indicates the statement is explaining something, but I’m not sure. It might also be this with the の contracted to ん.

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More pages, more questions! Thanks for all the help with the previous ones!

p. 63

  1. 世の中の男は見る目ないなとおもって
    Is that “I think the men of the world don’t have a discerning eye”?
    Is there a が omitted between 見る目 and ない?
    And the な after that is a stronger ね?
    Why does this end in a て form? An ommitted いる?

  2. いやかわいいすぎて手を出さない…のか？
    Is the いや him disagreeing with what he previously said himself?
    I hadn’t seen the て form used as a reason yet. Is that what is happening here?
    And the のか is him doubting whether this is what’s happening? That’s what I’m getting from 〜のか - Grammar - Kanshudo which @anon99047008 posted earlier.

p. 64

  1. 将棋に夢中だからとか書いとけばいいんじゃないのか
    とか?
    書いとけば?

  2. いえ。これOKの返事なんで
    Is he saying “No. [The hard part] is [writing] an OK answer.” refering to him saying “this is hard” on the last page?

p. 65

  1. 田中って…
    I assume the OKって before that is “He said ‘OK’”, but this one isn’t about the content, but the speaker? Is it “Tanaka said that”?

  2. 私のこと好きなんじゃなかったの…？
    Is this one “He doesn’t like me?”? “Doesn’t he like me?”?
    What’s the なん doing in the middle there?

  3. 「ラブレターをもらった不良」がどんなOKの返事をするのか
    Is that still a continuation of the previous bubble? “I really don’t know how this Furyou who received the love letter is gonna write that OK answer”?
    And the のか is because it’s the indirect question “How is Furyou gonna write that?”
    Gotta admit that this whole “indirect question” thing is still a bit nebulous to me.

p. 66

  1. マンガ部の友達にそういう設定で手紙の内容かんがえてくれって頼まれたんですよ
    Is that a passive sentence? I didn’t learn passive yet, but that’s how the sentence would kinda make sense to me: “I have been asked by a friend from the manga club to think about the contents of that letter for that setting.”

  2. 言いませんでしたっけ
    Is that “Didn’t I tell you that?” like DeepL thinks?
    What’s the っけ?

  3. 家帰ってやれ!!
    Is that “Do it when you get home”?
    If so, what conjugation is やれ in?

  4. そんあもん!!
    It means “that’s the way it is” or “such is life​”, so in this case… “That’s how you should do it! [Instead of doing it in the club room!]”?

I actually think I completely understand the last panel on page 64! What a nice feeling! :smiley:

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have a question for page 71 (file 73) first speech bubble where she explains the rules.
what does she mean with 音だしちゃったら?
when a sound is produced?
i get the rules from the context, but they switch when the pieces fall right? is this just another way of saying that? sound of the pieces clattering?

also page 75 (file 77), what does her exclamation mean? (来ないんかい)?

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Pg. 63

  1. That is how I interpreted it also (Well, I read it as, “I am thinking that the men of the world are blind.” But the overall impression is the same, and I think yours is a more literal translation.)
    I don’t believe it really needs a が there. You could probably put one and not be incorrect, but it would sound a bit unnatural.
    For the な, this might help clear things up a bit for you. It certainly helped me when I was still unfamiliar with it as a sentence ender: word choice - When is “na” used at the end of a sentence? - Japanese Language Stack Exchange. I think in this case, it is the Rhetorical usage.
    It ends in って because he is more or less decided (at the moment in which he says it, since he does second-guess himself after), but in the moment, he is actively thinking, “Yes, it’s this,” and it’s more or less decided. If it were 思う instead, it would sound slightly less confident, I think. This might help. They word it better than me: grammar - Difference between volitional +と思う and volitional+ と思っている - Japanese Language Stack Exchange

  2. Yes, he is disagreeing with himself.
    I don’t think て is being used as a reason, it’s saying that Urushi is in a state of being too cute, contracting かわいい過ぎている. I could be wrong, though.
    Yes, sorta interjecting a slight bit of doubt, but not because he doubts that she is cute, just that maybe that’s not the reason men are avoiding her. The only thing in question for him is why she hasn’t received a love letter.

Pg. 64
  1. Not sure if you are asking what とけば is, but I’m going with that is the question… This one is related to ておく + ば, I think. I’m sorta shaky on this one, so if somebody else wants to jump in and correct me, they are probably correct. ておく contracts to とけ, and then you add ば.

ておく = telling somebody to do for future convenience. It’s listed here, a bit down the page. NEW! How to use Vておく ( = te oku) – Maggie Sensei
ば = conditional (if, then)

I’m going to break down the whole sentence and how I interpreted it to try and make it clearer:

そうだ= I know; I got it
将棋に = Shogi, with に marker
夢中だから = crazy about/obsessed with, with から explanatory (“because”)
とか = something
書いとけば = Writing, plus the contracted ておく + ば, so it becomes, essentially, “you should write [previous sentence]”
いいんじゃない = won’t it be good
のか = same のか we have been talking about; gives an air of “unsure”

So how I interpreted it,

“I know! If you write something like, “I’m crazy about shogi,” then won’t that be good?”

Editing because days later, I saw that my brain somehow planted とか in the sentence twice… Fixing that for clarity and shaking my head at myself. :stuck_out_tongue:

She is basically suggesting he turn the person who wrote the love letter down (automatically assuming that he is turning them down) by saying he is too crazy about shogi to be in a relationship, I think. Hopefully that makes sense. I’m a bit shaky on the grammar of it myself.

  1. So, OK is used a little differently in Japan, sometimes. I would say that what he is saying is, “No, this is a “yes” response.”
    Edit: Correcting this because I got turned around there. OK is in fact an adjective in this case, modifying 返事, but it’s still meaning a positive response, as opposed to how we might use it in English, “Eh, it’s ok.” In this case, it’s a “Yes” answer.
Pg. 65
  1. This is another use of って, I think. って can also be used in place of は sometimes in casual speech, and I think that’s what’s happening here.

田中って…私のこと好きなんじゃなかったの

“Tanaka didn’t like me?”

  1. I sorta answered this previously, but to narrow in on the なん, 好き is not a verb. It is a な adjective. so that is 好きなのではない, put into the past tense to become すきなんじゃなかった. It has a more explanatory tone than just すきじゃなかった, and sounds a bit stronger as well. She is basically coming to grips with the fact that if he is writing a positive response to a love letter, then that means he doesn’t like her after all.

This page is helpful in breaking that down: How to use 〜じゃない ( = janai) ＆ 〜んじゃない ( = ~ njanai) – Maggie Sensei

  1. “A delinquent (not a name, so not Furyou) receiving a love letter,” (he is quoting something that was said to him, then following up with the どんなOKの返事をするのか, which breaks down a little awkwardly

どんな ＝ what sort of
OKの返事 = positive response
するのか= do, with the indirect question

I would say the intended meaning is overall, “How would “a delinquent receiving a love letter” write a positive response?”

or maybe, “What kind of positive response would “a delinquent receiving a love letter” give?” is a better translation, on reflection.

And yes, the のか is very nebulous. I’m still not super confident in it either, I’m just rolling with it and hoping that seeing it used will eventually sink it in for me better.

Pg. 66

  1. I believe you have that correct.

  2. Learn JLPT N3 Grammar: っけ (kke) – Japanesetest4you.com

It’s what actually gives it the “Didn’t I say that?” meaning, I think. It still doesn’t feel cemented in for me, but it got me through the sentence well enough. I hope to see it more.

  1. やる is a godan verb, so for command form, the う becomes an え sound, so やれ. And, yes, that is essentially the meaning, “Go home and do it!”

  2. Yep, you got it. :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

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Pg. 71

Yes, I think it’s just another way of wording that, essentially, but being more clear about it. If you noticed in the video that @2OC3aOdKgwSGlxfz posted above, sometimes the piece would fall slightly, but it didn’t count as a loss because it didn’t make a clack sound on the board, so I think as long as it sorta “scoots” and doesn’t “clack,” you are good.

Pg. 75

I think かい is sorta dialectal, in some cases, but I also remember reading that it turns a statement into a yes or no question.

So, 来ないんかい would be, sorta, “Yes or no, aren’t you coming!?”

Basically, she is demanding a clear answer from him as to whether or not he is going to try and mess with her like she did him, I think. Serious, “Come at me, bro!” vibes from it, anyway. :stuck_out_tongue:

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I was sat here thinking, what is everyone talking about and then I realised I’d forgotten to read the second chapter :joy:

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I can beat that - I was reading the wrong book! Seriously, I’m half way through Takagi-san, and when I opened Book Walker and Takagi-san was open I just read the next chapter. It was only when the page numbers here didn’t make any sense that I clicked…

I think that this 触れなきゃ is short for 触れなければ. I may be wrong but if I put 触れなきゃ into ichi.moe it seems to back that up. Still means the same thing - “if you don’t touch your opponent, it’s even ok to try and put them off (hindrance is permissible).”

I have another suggestion for this which would be the word 書いとく - which means “to write down” - here in it’s provisional form 書いとけば.

I’ve always understood the -eba form plus いい to mean literally - “if doing … good”, or just “why don’t you…”

So I get a similar translation to you:
将棋に夢中だからとか書いとけばいいんじゃないのか?
Why don’t you write down something like, “because I’m obsessed with Shogi”?

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I could be mistaken, but I’m pretty sure 書いとく is a contraction of 書いておく, which is the verb + ておく construct I was talking about. Sorta like how Jisho lists 当てっこ as it’s own word, “guessing,” but it is related to the っこ grammar point (to compare a similar discussion we were having in the Takagi-san book club). I suppose we get the same meaning, either way, but I think they are the same grammar point, not necessarily a separate instance (definitely open to being corrected if I’m wrong, of course!)

Editing: I should have looked more closely at the jisho entry. It seems to support that idea: 書い - Jisho.org

Editing to add one more thing: It also makes sense that this would become “to write down” colloquially, since ておく has the “for future use” vibe to it, as mentioned in the Maggie-sensei link, so when you “write for future use”, you “write it down.” Either way, I would be curious to know if it is totally unrelated, but I suspect it’s definitely the same point (though I did forget in my initial explanation to say that とく is the contraction, and becomes とけ only because it’s attached to the ば provisional/conditional construct)

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You’re probably right! That does seem to fit better.

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I think just about anything I could ask for these last two chapters has been covered - though I do find it funny how the first chapter felt pretty easy in terms of vocab for me, but the second chapter had me completely lost on vocab because of the shogi-specific stuff, though that means I probably ended up learning more from it - for instance seeing べき for one of the first times that I can remember

And I just watched the video on 将棋崩し which really helped with understanding what the game was haha

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