Currently I am studying grammar from ,well everywhere but manily from bunpro and anywhere you go they just give you translation and how to use it, there is no explanation behind it. I am not asking for much, at least general idea behind this grammar point. Plz help.
There is a readings-section in Bunpro, though?
I don’t read that tbh🤪
Yeah, but they do provide some ways to get explanations.
Regardless, they are useful, I find, especially when they link back to grammar dictionary page numbers.
Yes there is a reading section where you can find sources for the explanations, but for example there is とすると、となると grammar point and it just says the result of this grammar point, I don’t understand why there is する there because it is clearly a transtive word so someone is supposed to do something, but who? They same goes with 匂いがする grammar, noone says why it works like that, it just works XD.
I don’t think it’s that beneficial (in terms of target language acquisition) to think about too much “why this grammar means this” or “why does this expression have this in it”. It just does. It’s Japanese and that’s how it works. For 匂いがする, you wouldn’t really think literally a smell is doing something.
I’m trying to make a distinction here between actual grammar study and thinking why some grammar works like this, because it’s probably not very clear.
You can find a list of grammar points py JLPT level here:
Hope that helps somehow
Well then, a guess i will do so too XD
Setting aside the discussion of whether it is helpful to parse every grammar point piece by piece, する is sometimes transitive and sometimes intransitive. As noted with something like 匂いがする, that’s an intransitive usage. There is no omitted direct object there.
But your comment about “someone is supposed to do something” makes me unsure what you are conceptualizing with transitive vs. intransitive.
Well, there is no clear subject that does an action in this case and by this i mean it is not written or said, i can not see it but it exists and should do something because the verb is transitive (if it is of course).
I’m just not sure what you mean by that. Whether a verb is transitive or intransitive doesn’t change it having a subject. What changes is whether it takes a direct object or not.
And basically, とすると and とすれば both work with “you” or “someone” being the subject. This is basically the meaning of とする which is “to suppose” or “to regard as.” It’s “you” or “we” or “the reader” etc, who is supposing or regarding it.
Yes, am generally confused what the subject is in that structure. And where is object, there is only と modifier to the verb.
I edited my post with more info, but it’s basically (私たちがそれ)とすると or (だれかがそれ)とすると or (あなたがそれ)とすると
It’s not really all that important who the specific subject is.
To me this seems clear if you understand the meaning of とする, but maybe I’m just unable to perceive the position of prior to learning about it.
What is then the meaning of とする, in my inderstadning と modifies the meaning of the verb that comes after it using sentence behind it. Is this wrong?
とする is an expression on its own. Were you trying to break it down as と + する and not as one thing?
Basically the relevant meaning is “to suppose” or “to regard as” in this context. There are other meanings in other grammatical structures.
That is the thing I am talking about, everybody just says this is an expression but it clearly has some meaning behind it, like how exactly と particle works with words like 考える、思う、嘘をつく and so on, i don’t know I just know what it means and this kills me, the inability to understand the very basics of the language for a year straight.
Well, think about it this way. What’s more likely, that you will need to explain to someone the etymological background of とすると, or that you will have to grasp the meaning of a sentence that uses it, or use it yourself?
You don’t need to know the history or any of that to grasp its usage, so agonizing over that doesn’t seem productive.
Any monolingual or bilingual dictionary can give you a succinct meaning of とすると without wading into the deeper levels of it.
There are loads of expressions that we use as natives in our own languages (many here are natives of something other than English) without fully knowing why they are used the way they are. Researching that stuff can be interesting, but it’s by no means necessary to use or understand it.
This definitely seems the way to go, guess there is actually no need to think about it ┐('～`;)┌
I disagree quite vehemently with a lot of the sentiment in this thread. While it may not be necessary to understand the etymological or linguistic basis for a word or expression in order to use it correctly, for myself and I’m sure many others, learning those points typically greatly improves overall understanding of a language as a whole as well.
And the original question still remains unanswered. Is there any resource out there in English that has good explanations on Japanese grammar per historic principles?