When beginners reading material starts to feel unnatural

[2tea]

I’m still processing this, and I wonder if others went through this phase.
I’ll give a little bit of background first.

I don’t read much these days, I mainly work on basic grammar again and most of my reading exposure is with dictionaries and articles in Japanese about words and phrases mainly about how to use them, mostly when there are threads here that deal with particular words or phrases (and subtitles for the occasional anime/movie/live action series).

I’m not afraid to put Japanese in my search box (I mention this because a lot of beginners and even some intermediates have a really hard time taking the plunge and stop relying on english material for guidance, even though they use Yomitan or 10ten or built-in OS translation).
The last time I went on one of this searches I suddenly realized I can actually read opposing to skim the material I’m searching.

WAIT WHAT???

Yeah, you read that correctly, I don’t really read the material I search, I only skim it and most of the work is done by the translator.

So my framework until now was I have enough basic skills to be able to search in Japanese but I can’t really understand/read it on my own, only bits and pieces.
And then this happened. I suddenly found myself reading on my own some of the sentences on the screen (shocker). Didn’t even meant to, it just happened.
It made me realize there’s somewhat of a disconnect between what I believe I can do and where I’m at right now. So I picked up Satori reader after a long time I haven’t used it, let it sync with my current WaniKani level (19 for posterity) and chose one of their new easy material called Spring.
This is what they write about this series:

Part of a quartet of very short stories, Spring follows a family of birds and the joys and challenges of new life. Featuring short sentences, desu/masu verb endings, and easy vocabulary, this series is perfect for students just getting started reading in Japanese. (Ongoing, 10 episodes)

Started reading the first chapter (Hey I can guess the kanji reading of new words correctly! thank you WaniKani!) and it was fairly easy to understand. some new words which is always a plus, should be great, no?

Well… what I didn’t expect was this nagging feeling of how unnatural the material felt. The grammar is correct and all. It’s the flaw and the structure and the scarcity of tenses and non existent dialogue, combined with I can only guess what my brain expects when it reads Japanese.

A few months ago when I came back to Japanese, being able to read and understand beginners material was incredible. Desu/masu were my friends. All I needed were some simple stories with some simple sentences where I can pick some new vocabulary up while reading them.
It doesn’t feel like that anymore. I wasn’t expecting this reaction.
Kinda bittersweet.

[Marifly]

@2tea

Well… what I didn’t expect was this nagging feeling of how unnatural the material felt.

I feel the same thing and the cure is native content of course. I have tried many times to get into Satori reader, but I just can’t. Give me content written for Japanese adults!

[Jintor]

It’s a beautiful duwang indeed.

I’m reading kid’s novels right now, which also feel a bit unnatural, but in a slightly more normal way I guess - they feel unnatural the way eg James and the Giant Peach or Enid Blyton feels a little bit unnatural, because it’s written for younger readers. Of course that just makes it hurt more that I can’t completely read it fluently yet

[2tea]

@Marifly

the cure is native content of course.

Yeah, I’m trying to push more towards native material but I still have so much to learn, giving up on what satori’s has to offer would be a miss for me.

@Jintor

It’s a beautiful duwang indeed.

Had to check the meme… oof that was kinda harsh… made me chuckle.

@Jintor

I’m reading kid’s novels right now, which also feel a bit unnatural, but in a slightly more normal way I guess - they feel unnatural the way eg James and the Giant Peach or Enid Blyton feels a little bit unnatural, because it’s written for younger readers.

Hmmm, that is an interesting comparison. It’s that didactic tone, too much and it feels unnatural.

@Jintor

Of course that just makes it hurt more that I can’t completely read it fluently yet

Yeah, it’s really weird the amount of ego and judgment and all those good stuff we associate with knowing a language or knowing a language well.
I grew up with the notion that if you know english you are smarter than other people. In the context of being able to acquire a second language it kinda makes sense (to some degree), it took me quiet awhile to realize that it’s only true if it is a second language and that it is meaningless if it’s your mother tongue. It’s crazy, it simply made people smarter by association…
So what I’m trying to say is, it’s true that most Japanese kids can read the books you read quite easily, but you’re not a Japanese kid… they just need to be able to read, they already know the words. It’s such a different experience.

[Jintor]

@2tea

So what I’m trying to say is, it’s true that most Japanese kids can read the books you read quite easily, but you’re not a Japanese kid… they just need to be able to read, they already know the words. It’s such a different experience.

Yes, when I realised that it made a lot more sense why there’s so much kana words in children’s lit. Kids have years of constant exposure to speech and context, where second-language learners are often approaching things in a very different way to that (words/kanji first). Funnily enough it took me observing a young family member learning to read to really twig to this.

[cezarL]

Mmmm… have you also tried any of the more ‘advanced’ stories on Satori?
And if yes, did that/those still feel the same?

(I went through the first two chapters of Spring - I ‘get’ the grammar but they have too many unknown words there for me. Their tailored explanations are awesome, though.)

[2tea]

@Jintor

there’s so much kana words in children’s lit.

That and the fact masu form is usually the first form Japanese as second language learners are introduce to.
I did pick up あのときの王子くん on the iBunkoHD reading app two or three months ago. Opened it and it was off course mostly kana with little to no kanji here and there. Read a few pages, which technically was pretty easy, and was able to understand a little bit. The thing is I’ve read this book so many times as a kid and a teen, I didn’t need much more than a word to know which sentence is which… so yeah, it was kinda pretend read. Still makes me laugh. But even being able to do this, is an achievement. Reading The little prince from start to finish could probably teach me a lot about grammar. Perhaps that should be my next step.

[2tea]

@cezarL

Mmmm… have you also tried any of the more ‘advanced’ stories on Satori?

Yes, you can read about it here Satori Reader appreciation thread - #46 by 2tea as well of others reviews of the material in the app

@cezarL

And if yes, did that/those still feel the same?

No, they didn’t. I simply think I got to the point where I got enough exposure to a more natural Japanese vs educational material that reading this specific kind of beginner material started to feel unnatural and I need to level up. I’m still gonna read it for the sake of new vocabulary and idioms, and the fact that it is easy.

@cezarL

I went through the first two chapters of Spring - I ‘get’ the grammar but they have too many unknown words there for me. Their tailored explanations are awesome, though.)

Yeah, if you’ve just started even the easiest material will be a challenge for you. I know there are those who push through it regardless, but that is not really my thing with reading unless I’m searching for something specific I really need to understand/learn.
I’m still at the stage where I’m more comfortable with being able to understand at least 75% of what I’m reading perhaps even 85%.
Their tailored explanations are indeed awesome.

[anon6600565]

I’ve had constant exposure to natural Japanese the entire time I was reading, so anytime I saw anything about Satori Reader, it kinda just raised an eyebrow. Never really felt the need to touch it since I could just focus on actual Japanese. Not the stilted kind aimed at foreigners unfamiliar with the language.

Not that this was immediately easy or anything, and I still stumble over basic things sometimes. But a lot of these tools sound like comfortable stopgaps that cause some people to linger a bit too long on them. It’s nice that they’re there, but you should probably graduate from it at the earliest possible convenience.

That said I definitely had that moment looking at Twitter, seeing this huge wad of kanji all stuck together and my brain telling me to give up. Only to realize I can just read the whole thing.

[2tea]

Was this comment processed by a bot/AI? it’s too perfect, it summarized to copied post too perfectly.
The structure here is really confusing for me. No jk.

[2tea]

@anon6600565

But a lot of these tools sound like comfortable stopgaps that cause some people to linger a bit too long on them.

@anon6600565

It’s nice that they’re there, but you should probably graduate from it at the earliest possible convenience.

Nahhh, that is just moral judgment where the truth is some people learn better this way.
Oh wait, this stance fits your brand. aboveup summs your pov pretty well…

@anon6600565

I definitely had that moment looking at Twitter, seeing this huge wad of kanji all stuck together and my brain telling me to give up. Only to realize I can just read the whole thing.

Yep, exactly that. It’s crazy. That super wierd reaction of NOPE at first glance and then the understanding that you understand. I wonder at what stage that initial reaction fades away.

[RebBlue]

Had a little look at their account. It was made last month, since then they’ve been here five days. Two of their three comments quote the entire thing they’re replying to.

That second one makes me think they’re a bot. They reply to someone on ch.22 of genki and 17 of wanikani, and their response says they are “Currently tackling Genki II, chapter 22, and Level 17 on Wanikani” which is more than a bit sus. Especially since their profile button thing says level 1, it should be whatever level they were a month ago which can’t be 1 if they’re currently 17.

[pm215]

@2tea

Was this comment processed by a bot/AI? it’s too perfect, it summarized to copied post too perfectly.
The structure here is really confusing for me. No jk.

If you check their posting history they are three for three on that style of comment. (I was actually half debating whether to flag one of the earlier comments for the mods when I saw it previously…)

[Dyuun]

@2tea

Yep, exactly that. It’s crazy. That super wierd reaction of NOPE at first glance and then the understanding that you understand. I wonder at what stage that initial reaction fades away.

While I’m not really capable of fluently reading a lot of stuff, I often have to stop myself hitting translate buttons instantly on Japanese text because I forget I can, in fact, give translating it myself a shot

[Belthazar]

@2tea

Was this comment processed by a bot/AI?

For the fun of it, here’s a response that was actually written by an AI:

@ChatGPT

It sounds like you’re experiencing a significant shift in your language learning journey, and it’s fascinating to hear about your journey with Japanese. The realization that you’re able to read and understand more than you previously thought is a major milestone, one that speaks volumes about your dedication and progress.

It’s natural to encounter bumps along the road, especially when your skills reach new levels. The feeling of disconnect between what you believe you can do and where you actually are can be disorienting, but it’s also a sign of growth. Embracing this discomfort can lead to even greater breakthroughs in your language proficiency.

Your observation about the unnatural feeling of the material is insightful. As you progress, your expectations and preferences for content naturally evolve. What once felt comfortable and exciting may now seem simplistic or lacking depth. This is a testament to your expanding linguistic repertoire and your ability to engage with more complex material.

Exploring different types of content, like the Satori reader series you mentioned, is a fantastic way to challenge yourself and continue expanding your skills. It’s all part of the journey toward fluency, where you’ll encounter a variety of materials and experiences that shape your understanding of the language.

Remember to celebrate your achievements, no matter how small they may seem, and to embrace the ups and downs of the learning process. Your willingness to reflect on your progress and adapt to new challenges will undoubtedly lead to even greater proficiency in Japanese. Keep up the excellent work, and don’t hesitate to reach out if you ever need support or encouragement along the way!

[2tea]

@RebBlue

Had a little look at their account

@pm215

If you check their posting history

I checked everything before I commented here for the off chance that I’m wrong wanted to see what you guys think.

@pm215

I was actually half debating whether to flag one of the earlier comments for the mods when I saw it previously…)

Yeah, I was thinking about flaging it as well, now after @RebBlue pointed out the discrepancy between its level and its level statement in the comment, I think we should flag it.

[Sisthra]

This is so weird… why make a wanikani bot account? Or why use AI to parse a simple forum answer?

Getting back on topic, I also had that feeling and prefer native content for that reason. Even if it is more difficult, the satisfaction of reading something that is actually aimed at native Japanese speakers (even if younger children for easier material) makes it much more satisfying.

[DuoLingo]

@Belthazar

For the fun of it, here’s a response that was actually written by an AI:

WOW, impressive!

I personally don’t like to use AI to answer questions but my curiosity did get the better of me regarding an astronomy question that had bugged me for years! I must say that I was somewhat impressed with its answer.

Just imagine what it’ll be like in a few years or more…it’ll be BOTH scary and mindboggling at the same time!

[anon6600565]

There’s really no moral judgement intended here and I’m really puzzled why every interaction with you, that you think that there is.

I apologize if anything I say really does offend you.

[2tea]

I wonder how much of it has to do with how easy it is to hit the translate button, comparing to using a physical dictionary. Makes me wonder what percentage of people still do math calculations in their head.

@Belthazar

For the fun of it, here’s a response that was actually written by an AI

You didn’t wow this is crazy cringe, the level of sincerity is like reading an astrological chart report. The P T Barnum of it all.

@Sisthra

This is so weird… why make a wanikani bot account? Or why use AI to parse a simple forum answer?

Because it can. and it is probably a way to scrap content or target users.

@RebBlue @pm215
TofugoNico said this account haven’t started any lessons yet and is very likely a bot