さあ。
To me beginner stuff are around N5 or maybe most beginner japanese books(hiragana mostly or only).
Advanced stuff N2~N1 light novels actual japanese books (to some extent haiku or comedy)
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Right, which highlights the point I was trying to make which is its all subjective and theres no real objective measure. It’s just an issue that comes up when people bring up things like “fluency”,“advanced”, or any other word thats got a super loose definition when it comes to language learning that depends on the individual.
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This makes sense. In context to the learners language background for instance. A child in Japan will be fluent at a lower level than an adult with an English speaking background given the same amount of work. I hear that going from a different Asiatic language will find learning Japanese easier also. A person knowing 2 or 3 other language will also find it easier to pick up a 3rd or 4th language.
Edit: Spelling
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I think you will leave the beginner “section” of kanji at 20+. You see it in the stats, By 20 you can ready many if not most things on for example nhk easy.
And finding yourself a good pacing is really important. Back then I rushed until 42 (it was I think at least) before I kinda burned out, stopped due to other things to do. After a break due to university studies, I resetted my progress and made a balanced plan between wanikani and other important parts like grammar.
I just take this moment to stress how important grammar and supplement vocabularies (non kanji words and so on) are. Back in the day I was always convinced that vocabs and kanji are more important, but nowadays I’m leaning towards the other side, even if it’s just 60:40 or less. Obvisously both aspects are important.
But the more I read and the more practice I get, the more I find something easier to understand if there is a missing word than a grammar concept I’m unfamiliar with.
Going full throttle on wanikani can be very demanding, especially if you don’t want to neglect your other areas of studying. So a good plan can be very helpful.
I can also recommend to immerse yourself more and more over the time. Like setting your mobile phone to japanese, your computer to japanese, talk/write to japanese people on apps or just try to think in japanese. Like your train of thought or your current actions. Such things become more important in my opinion when beginners slowly climb towards the inermediate level and are (maybe) still only following their textbook and vocabs lists strictly.
It doesn’t only boost your level of japanese, it is also fun to see progress in these kinds of areas and little achievements to keep you motivated.
頑張ってよ
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I don’t think the notion of intermediate wall applies to wanikani at all. Nor to kanji in general.
I think the concept of intermediate wall applies to japanese as a whole, or you could stretch that to grammar in particular.
Some kanji you will learn here at level 30 or more, yet you could encounter them in beginner level native content.
The kanji for “break” is a level 29 kanji, but you will see it very often in beginner content.
The kanji for “arrow” is a level 3 kanji, and you may very well not see it before delving in intermediate+ content.
Hope that makes sense.
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Ever since I hit level 20 I’ve been leveling up at the rate of 1 level a month, I have chosen to slow down and wait till apprentice items are at between 0-30, before starting new lessons because I absolutely cannot stand large review piles any more
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Hi, Sorrymasen. You also make a good point. And just to add to it, books marketed to native speakers (of any age) are meant to be read by someone who already speaks the language fluently (or rather Native Fluently). WaniKani is meant more for someone who starts out with little or no grasp on the language (and should be supplemented with other areas of study/reading).
WaniKani builds your vocab from the ground up. Where I imagine that a Native speaker can learn faster to be literate by learning through frequency and by reading low level books (which have a natural frequency to vocab/kanji). The way I see it, if I had to learn Japanese by memorizing every kanji/vocab based on what I already knew starting out (0%) and using the natural frequency found in native content; I might very well spend 10 years and still not be anywhere. WaniKani isn’t meant for native speakers to become literate. It’s meant for English speakers to build on.
So, I believe that if you were able to speak the language already, it would be quicker to learn kana and then go straight into reading native material. Wanikani is probably not as quick for us English Natives compared to the former. But, WaniKani does what it does well enough. And I imagine that by the end of it, when full circle comes around, its a lot of content, but its quicker then the alternative.
Edit: kanji + vocab
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The wall started for me around late 20’s. The number of similar kanji increases a lot and the words start to get more abstract in my opinion. And that was around when all my burns started to kick in, increasing the review load.
I’m finding I have to let the notion of the 1 week level and speed running wanikani go. It just doesn’t fit for me right now. Honestly I consider it a win if I can just get to learning the kanji within a week of starting the level lol.
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Hi, romato. Thanks for sharing your graph. I know what you mean, even being lower level right now; I think I’m more of a tortoise than a hair. Keep it up!
I think it’s different for everyone. For me it got serious at level 7, and then I hit the wall at level 14.
Level 7 is where the review workload started to get serious. Level 14 is where all those items that I only kinda learned but were up in the Master/Enlightened categories started dropping back down to Apprentice for their second go around. I’ve now found that items like to churn more than they did earlier. I will very occasionally use bish-bash-bosh, but only when I’m completely caught up on reviews.
I do however expect the goal posts to move and to hit another wall somewhere in the 20s. I just keep doing my reviews and hope that items eventually move right and stay there.
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Check out this post. It really helped me focus (although I’m bad at tech, so getting the extensions took a bit of work).
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Thanks for sharing!
I’m leery about using scripts. My luck I would mess something up. Might look more into it later down the road though. Thanks!
I had to get my apprentice down to about 40-50, to weed out some of the leeches and I’m still on level 9. But after about 30-40 days I think (not sure exactly), I’m starting to do lessons again. It feels good to have a better idea about how to approach and use wanikani. Good luck in your studies!
The most frustrating thing about picking up any skill—languages, instruments, you name it—is that there’s rarely a consistent definition of “intermediate.”
For example, I’d call myself an intermediate pianist. But I’m at a point where it’s especially difficult to find ways to improve because almost every in-print resource is either a beginner’s tutorial or a master-class. So if I find a useful-looking resource, I have to slog through chapter after chapter of “here are your seven keys, and this is a magical thing called a chord!”
Japanese learning is rife with this. You pretty much have to attack the language on several fronts concurrently: kanji; phonology; pitch accent; grammar; aural comprehension… You can follow Dogen’s advice and put everything but pitch accent on the back burner, but I don’t think I agree with his rationale.
I would be thrilled if someone would create some unified idea of what “intermediate Japanese” looks like. But not everyone prioritizes those sub-skills equally, so I think it’ll be a while, which sucks.
EDIT:
I’m not sure, but I’m pretty sure I’m right in it. For me, what’s helped most of all is to give myself projects. I’ve been playing Machi and the Tales of Destiny Director’s Cut. It’s gratifying when you use WaniKani and your brain fills in more and more kanji. And it’s even more gratifying when the kanji you’ve had to look up a dozen times shows up in WaniKani so you know you’ll learn it for good.
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Hey Brand_S. I know what you mean. It’s almost a catch 22 in that:
you need to know grammar in order to know how to distinguish vocab from particles/conjugations in sentences.
But you need to know vocab in order to be able to read. you need to know how to read in order to learn and reinforce proper grammar which you need in order to pick out the vocab and the cycle repeats itself. Maybe, intermediate is when you no longer have to think about grammar as much as in the beginning. Maybe its more like, when you can focus mainly on vocab, that’s when you are close?
But also, I think that when you are able to read kana without having to stop and think about what characters you are reading, that’s a pretty good sign that you have probably moved out of Absolute Beginner and are now ready to start advancing towards beginner/beginner intermate+.
Also, I can usually parse a sentence even if I have to look up words, and be able to understand most of it now. But my listening skills are horrible. However, a guy I know who is also a nerd like I am when it comes to anime, manga etc. He has been watching anime in Japanese (with English Subs) for over a decade, and can usually vaguely gleam what is happening in an anime by listening to the audio alone. But, he doesn’t have many kanji under his belt yet, or grammar and is still working on his kana skills. So to make a point here, my question is:
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If I am able to read and understand some words, depending on the sentence and topic, and parse a sentence well enough to know what is happening in a manga. (even though my listening skill are bad)
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And if someone else is able to listen to a conversation in Japanese and pick up the jest of it, without having to read any subtitles. (Yet he has virtually 0 grammar knowledge).
Who is more fluent?
Its like comparing apples and oranges. Really, I think that there are about 5-7 different skills that have to be acquired in order to become Natively fluent in Japanese. But then again, My idea of fluent is to be able to read and listen to manga and anime. Someone else might want to be able to hold a conversation.
But anyway, its fun to think about all of this kind of stuff, to me anyway. I think what I like about this forum is that everyone here is intelligent in one way or another, and are invested in learning the same things.
Edit: Also, I want to play yokai watch 4 on switch someday. I have a lot of Japanese manga too that would be cool to be able to read. The tales of games are great too. Tales of Graces f is awesome!
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Hey, as someone who was literally in this exact place two weeks ago, may I suggest that instead of turning on vacation mode, you just stop doing new lessons for a week or two? (or until your apprentice pile becomes manageable)
Vacation mode just makes things worse, because when you come back there’ll be even more things you don’t remember, and you’ll probably end up resetting back a couple levels.
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Did you consider resetting a level or two?
I went through a similar block between 27-29 levels and I could overcome the block by resetting a level, then doing fewer lessons until the leeches were controlled. I guess activating vacation mode will only buy some time but the number of reviews will be scary after restarting.
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If there’s a right answer to this question, I think you’ve nailed it. As others have responded, and for me too as well, the 27-29 wall is very real. It’s not a “life got in the way thing” as some have said. It’s the first time a bunch of similar kanji come up and some of the old kanji that never get used come back for burns.
I think my brain started to use “visual shortcuts” at some point without me realizing it. Instead of the full mnemonic that used every part of the kanji, I’d just see some part of it and it would trigger the right thing. Now that is backfiring because I can’t distinguish some of them anymore and I have to very deliberately go relearn some of the mnemonics I haven’t seen in 3 months.
It’s basically like doing several levels at once.
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Yeah, I’ve been thinking a lot about what “fluency” really means. One thing that being a prof has taught me is that ranking anything as a single number is a shaky endeavor at best (I really don’t like the grading part of my job). We all have strengths and weaknesses and as you intimated, it’s best for learners to team up to complement one another!
My idea of “fluent” is pretty close to yours. I’d like to be able to enjoy Japanese media without “usually” needing a dictionary (I haven’t figured out how to define “usually” yet!). The school I teach at has multiple ethnic enclaves, and my other idea of “fluency” is the ability to converse with students who are still acquiring English. They deserve to know that I’m as willing to work past communication barriers as they are.
I have the first two Yokai Watch games, and I like what I’ve played! Have you ever seen The Great Yokai War? If you can find it, it’s a well-made, almost Spielbergian movie that gave me a new appreciation for yokai that appear in Yokai Watch and Shin Megami Tensei and Kakuranger and Hero Yoshihiko. It’s also a kids’ movie that doesn’t let the audience off easy, and that’s the best kind of kids’ movie!