Perfectly clear, thanks! So the circumstances of the action could be the place where this action happens, or (in this case) the means by which the action is performed (by myself)?
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Yeah, but it’s probably the least of the mental gymnastics needed if you want to approach understanding things that way. lol
@mariodesu had a question about a ことがある phrase in another post and I didn’t even attempt to explain why “thing that exists” means “have ever done before”. I just linked the JLPT sensei page. 
I mean, you can kinda see how it works but it’s just as convoluted as the で thing.
Haha, same. And really, you only need something to bridge the gap until you internalize it so I don’t think it matters too much in the long run.
That sounds like a fancy way of saying “by means of”
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Not really though, “by means of” to me implies the use of something (like a tool or whatever), whereas circumstances can just be… erm… circumstantial 
To give an example, nobody walks “by means of” rain, but rain can be the circumstances for walking.
I think that’s precisely what it is, but I’d have to look it up to be sure
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I think “by means of” implies that something is being used to support the action.
to me, “by means of (being) alone” would suggest that the action required you to be alone rather than that you happened to be alone when you did the action
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Don’t know why but honestly I can more easily get what you guys mean when you explain japanese rather than when you explain english
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I think a part of that is you’re probably not used to thinking about English in that way - you just understand the language, and it makes sense, and it doesn’t really matter what the rationale is behind any given construction or whether there even is one, as long as you know what it means. When it comes to Japanese however, you’re still very much in that stage of thinking rationally about everything you read and trying to make sense of it in terms you’re used to.
Also English is the linguistic equivalent of an eldritch horror risen from the depths to break the sanity of all who behold it
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Beautiful explanation, I didn’t get the reference in the last note but yes I believe that english grammar is difficult. I recently studied to pass the C1 exam of english comprehension (highest possible which is compared to native - don’t know how accurately - is C2) don’t know if you know what it is because it’s probably just foreigners’ interest. But the point is that I had quite some troubles at really understanding some grammar, despite at the time I had been using it for 13-14 years and understand it better than Italian at times My cold impression as a beginner is that japanese grammar is easier than english grammar, but I could just be biased by this rational approach I’m used to use with japanese and not with english
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It’s partially a joke (bit of a reference to the Cthulhu mythos there) but also… yeah, English is a bit chaotic when it comes to grammar, with a bunch of irregularities that really do just boil down to “that’s just the way it is”. Not that English is alone in that, plenty of languages are similar in that respect - I know for a fact Dutch is full of irregularities as well 
Japanese grammar really does feel very logical and straightforward by comparison, but even then sometimes the answer is just “that’s how the language evolved”.
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Yeah that’s fair. We don’t really think of using the other definitions of the word in that way in English and, like you said, there’s no good way to go about it.
“By means of myself” sounds absurd but it does kind of convey enough meaning (heh) that you can use it as a crutch to remember that usage in Japanese.
Indeed. 
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Luckily I can say that at least on a concious level and halway thru N5 grammar, I could explain almost everything I encountered in a logica way, I hope it will remain like this
Here’s a random thought: I like to think that behind every change there must be a reason… any change in the nature of any thing in a world with scarce resources and competition (which applies to language too) won’t survive if it makes life less functional (and I don’t mean easier) so probably every change in language happened for some reason that we sometime just can’t know and have to accept that way
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Honestly, I wish that all grammar points were as straightforward as this one! When we break it down:
見た - having seen
ことがある - a concept that exists
So, “having seen” is a concept that exists, i.e. I have seen it already. The only thing one should be aware of that this only applies to initial or rare encounters of the “having seen” action, it’s not used for things I see every day like “have you already seen/met your colleague/classmate/friend today?” or something.
Japanese grammar has its difficulties in other places than English grammar. The basics are pretty straightforward, but then you get hundreds of these set phrases like "~たことがある” and they are sometimes only distinguished by very fine nuances but each has its individual meaning and usage. (I’m currently studying for N2 and there are about 15-20 grammar points that contain こと and the same amount that contain もの and so on and so on. That’s what really makes Japanese grammar difficult ime, but it’s a very different thing compared to English grammar.)
It remains like this for the majority, I’d say, although some require some mental gymnastics to get them. But there are others that I find pretty hard to derive, tbh.
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Could you do one example?
エッフェル塔を見たことがありますか。
Have you ever seen the Eiffel tower?
日本に行ったことがありますか。
Have you ever been to Japan?
But not
今日、田中さんを見たことがありますか。(Wrong!!!)
Have you seen Tanaka-san today?
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tbh I don’t think set phrases are grammar and I’m not sure why they get lumped together
then again, there’s a whole bunch of teaching choices in japanese that I find bizarre and unintuitive…
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Yes, that’s a whole other conversation to have 
I also struggled with this a lot. But I think it makes sense to use the terminology that’s to be found basically everywhere 
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NicoleRauch already gave some good examples. The way I see ことがある is more like “have you ever had the experience of X?”, so it wouldn’t make sense to say “Have you ever had the experience of seeing Tanaka-san today?”.
This also works for ことがない:
エッフェル塔を見たことがない。
I have never seen the Eiffel tower. / I have never had the experience of having seen the Eiffel tower.
Honestly, a lot of what is considered grammar for Japanese seems to be set phrases or just vocabulary. But as NicoleRauch said, it is so prevalent that it is easier to go with the flow. Also it is a convenient place to be able to discuss and teach set phrases so… ¯\(ツ)/¯
Edit: As for で, one way to think of it is “how was something done”? By car we travelled, alone I did this thing, etc. Not sure if that covers all uses, but it helped me.
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Thanks for the intervention, I find this very helpful
This also feels like a very intuitive way to think about it and at least in that situation I asked about it makes sense to me
May I ask another question:
I encountered the てみる thing (like 食べてみる) and now am wondering something about it:
- Is みる found in kanji too within this use? (Like - 食べて見る)
- It’s simply ~みる attaching to the ~て form of whatever verb in question, right?
- I’m not sure I got what it really means yet, but to me it appears like performing an action and then judging the outcome. Like ‘i wonder if that burger tastes good, so i will taste it and see). Is this right or I’m missing something?
Thanks all for the answers!
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You can write it like that, but as a general rule auxiliary verbs are written in kana only, so a reader would be inclined to interpret 食べてみる differently from 食べて見る (which might be some other use of the て form, like indicating a reason, or sequence, or …)
Yup!
I guess that’s a decent way of looking at it, sure. I wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the actual reasoning behind the construction.
That said, I’m not sure actively judging the outcome is necessary, but in the end that’s kind of the point of trying something, so I don’t think it matters all that much.
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It is more about trying something. Like hearing about a new restaurant, and saying I will go try it (行ってみる) or that donut looks delicious, I will try it (食べてみる). So in a way, it is about judging whether it is good/bad, but as I understand it, it is more about trying something.
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Are you referring to team いられない by any chance?
Or the N flavors of に連れて, と共に, etc?
It’s usually about trying something for the first time. The “trying something” as in “making an effort to do something” is a slightly different construction:
- <verb clause> にようにする - making an effort
- <verb clause with verb in volition tense> とする - trying to do something
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