šŸ’Ž The Beginner Final Fantasy Club (BFFC)

Actually with all the discussion of different versions, remakes, remasters, and whatnot in this thread I’d like to recommend this video, which I think has a very nuanced take on ā€œwhere do we draw the line between two things being the same game and them being different gamesā€:

It’s nominally about Half-Life and Black Mesa (a fan-made remake of the game), but the actual content of the essay uses that more as a springboard for the actual discussion, which could easily be applied to the Final Fantasy games. I think it’s interesting to take this and apply it to, for example, the Pixel Remasters (and you might end up with different answers for different entries)

I’ll definitely watch this video, but I have to say FF2 is probably the game where I felt the weight of this concept the most, because it’s in a very peculiar place:

  • The original was never released outside of Japan and only remakes/remasters got an official release abroad.
  • Those remasters tweaked the gameplay of the game pretty thoroughly, correcting many bugs but also making the game significantly easier.
  • Because it’s such an early game and it’s not generally considered a ā€œgemā€ of the saga, for the most part only hardcore fans bother to play it and usually they’ll play one of the remasters because it’s by far the easiest way to access the game, especially if you can’t read Japanese.
  • Also because Famicom games are so clunky and primitive, both in gameplay and presentation, modern gamers are less likely to revisit those games unlike the 16bit era onwards that aged a bit more gracefully.

I played the game for the first time a few months ago using the original Famicom release and it was weird reading reviews of the game on English websites after that because the overwhelming majority of them are based on remakes with very few having tried the original release at all. That creates a weird distortion because the game plays very differently between versions, in particular the original is really hard if you don’t abuse the game mechanics.

So basically if you see people discussing FF2 in English forums, you have to assume that they’re not actually discussing the original FF2. I don’t remember even experiencing something like this because usually when a game gets remastered there are enough people around who have played the original to recenter the discussion when version differences come up, but it’s not really the case for FF2.

For instance I read many forum posts and reviews saying something like ā€œpeople complain about the progression system but it’s really not that badā€ and invariably I think ā€œyeah play the original and see how you feel about thatā€¦ā€.

I feel the same way. NES was my first console, so I’m no stranger to the limitations of that hardware, but of course we never got any NES or SNES Final Fantasy in PAL region, so my first touch with the series was Final Fantasy VII.

Final Fantasy VII is the bridge between these older titles and the fully 3D ā€œmodernā€ Final Fantasy. Although I loved going back to the SNES games with an early SNES emulator later, I didn’t get to experience those games without knowledge of FFVII. I now notice that it really does affect how you approach the game – even with all the Pixel Remaster enhancements and tuning, these feel very old and barebones design-wise. I’m trying hard to meet them at where they are, but I can’t help but think that we are going to see some major improvements starting from FFIV.

Contrast with Legend of Zelda, which I’ve been playing in release order since the golden NES cartridge, enjoying each step of development as it happened. To me the first NES Zelda is still an amazing game. No remake or remaster necessary. Would I think so if my first Zelda was, say, Wind Waker? Quite probably not…

Ok I watched the video now. It’s very thoughtful and well made, but ultimately I can’t help feeling that it’s kind of besides the point, at least as far as I’m concerned.

It starts by questioning which version of Da Vinci’s Last Supper would be considered the ā€œauthenticā€ one. I think that’s a very profound question, but I do think that the video is unconvincing when it bridges from there to videogames.

Physical works of art are ā€œnon fungibleā€. If you restore the Last Supper, you destroy the Last Supper as it currently exists and you create a new work. In these conditions, an utmost amount of care must be employed by artisans and technicians to make sure that the restoration is necessary and meaningful, and that leads to all sorts of complicated philosophical discussions on the nature of art. It also leads to considering that the real, original version of the work as intended by the author has already been irretrievably lost. We will never know what the Last Supper was really meant to look like, or at least we will never be entirely sure.

Videogames, movies and books are not like this. Black Mesa does not replace Half Life, it’s a new, different thing. The author of the video spends time discussing version differences and display technology and patches and hardware differences, but frankly it’s besides the point. If you really want you can absolutely buy original discs of Half Life and install it on old-school hardware. I can literally return to my old bedroom in my parent’s home and plug my PlayStation to a CRT TV and reconstitute the 90’s gaming experience almost perfectly. I still have a GameBoy that I can use to replay Zelda in the exact same conditions as I did 30+ years ago. And when it’s not practical to recreate the hardware setup, emulation usually gets us extremely close.

The philosophical discussion as to what constitutes a different version of a game and what constitutes a different game altogether is of no real import to me. As far as I can tell the only point would be to gatekeep discussions online, as if I said to people having played the FF2 Pixel Remaster that they haven’t actually played the real FF2, or if @Daisoujou told me that I haven’t played the real FF2 because I used an emulator and not the real hardware, or if I told him that I don’t think that he played the real FF2 because he used a patched version. I don’t think it’s useful or productive to do that. I do think however that it’s important to contextualize criticisms of the work based on the version being considered. You can’t say that it’s wrong to complain about the progression system of FF2 if you’re playing a version that tweaks it significantly. You can’t say that it’s wrong for a day 1 review of The Witcher 3 to complain about bugs if you’re playing the game years later with all sorts of bugfix patches.

The more interesting discussion to me, which the video briefly touches on, is that even if I was to recreate my 90’s bedroom to perfection and I told my 10yo nephew to come and play the original Final Fantasy VII there, they still wouldn’t experience what I experienced back then. The game would be perfectly identical, the presentation would be perfectly identical, but it still wouldn’t be the same experience because modern expectations and goalposts are completely different. What was a ground-breaking, state-of-the art experience for me back then would be a low-tech, ā€œretroā€ game for him.

So in a very real sense it’s actually possible that, for my nephew, playing the FFVII Remake today would be closer to the subjective experience I had as a kid when playing the OG FFVII.

I’m going to stop my ramble here because I could go on for pages and pages on this particular topic…

The FF3 start date poll is here:

About how many hours a week do you all play to finish the assigned section? I don’t really plan to join for FF3 (never played it, but never been a fan of the job system), but I could join for FF4 or FF6 as those are the first two games in the series I really liked.

Also, is it possible to select Japanese language in the PS5 version or would I have to play on PC to get language options? Sorry if this has been answered already, but I haven’t been following the thread.

Gameplay only, 1-2 hours typically, at least with the pixel remasters where everything just goes faster. It might be even faster if you use boosts, slower if you play the originals or older ports.

I take longer than that per week, but that’s because I painstakingly translate every single line in the spreadsheet.

The PS5 store page for the pixel remasters indicate multiple language support including Japanese.

The FF2 club has now officially concluded (although of course I’m looking forward to reading the reactions of the pristine post-players). FF3 will start in two weeks!

I have switched the FF2 spreadsheet to read-only to prevent vandalism, a big thank you to all the people who have contributed to it. Let me know if you think something needs updating in the future (I also have left comments on, I think that’s fine?).

I have also switched the FF3 spreadsheet to read-write and I have prepared the vocab list for W1.

The punishment for filthy preplaying has arrived. My Switch has been off since I finished FF2 in November and now even after charging it for a few hours it won’t turn on :x

No choice but to emulate the original. Enjoy the kana!

Sometimes you have to leave it plugged in for a super long time (like a couple of days), I’ve had this happen before too.

My wife had something like that with her switch 2 even where it just didn’t want to start charging again after it died once. Hopefully that’s all it is here and it gets better soon :folded_hands:

Or go get my old DS. Choosing between kana and French hmm.. Both unplayable, won’t do.

Found a thread on Reddit recommending to unplug the joycons and to plug it in the docking station. It seems to have done the trick, I can officially filthy preplay FF3 now, if I want to :smile:

Wasn’t the Switch 2 released like, yesterday? I’m impressed it has had time to die already.

Oh Nintendo will find a way to have problems as fast as possible; I’m already having controllers with stick drift lol. It’s temporary and fixable by cleaning it so I think it’s more about how with use they sort of create their own dust but it took me like literally 2 weeks of having the pro controller 2 for it to have issues.

The FF3 club begins! Follow the main thread to keep track if you’re interested.

Do you have an estimate for how many weeks FF3 will take? SNES games when?

I haven’t finished my filthy preplay yet because of Factorio so I can’t be sure but I’m aiming for 10-ish weeks, like FF2. I have already prepared 5 weeks in the spreadsheet and, based on the table of contents of a random walkthrough I found, it seems to be roughly halfway through the game, so hopefully it lines up…

I have never played this game before so I’m not really sure what’s waiting for me in the 2nd half however, so I can’t be sure.

With the pixel remaster, can you switch languages from within the game or do you need to have system settings to Japanese? Looks like FFIV is on sale on PS5 right now, so I might buy it. But Sony isn’t known for allowing returns, so I don’t want to buy it just to find out I can’t actually play in Japanese.

Pixel Remaster games can switch languages without changing the system language. The first time you open it it will (understandably) be in English (or whatever), but it will stay in Japanese once you switch it.

At least that’s true on Switch so a mild, maybe it’s not the same on PS, but that would be wild…