Short Grammar Questions (Part 2)

[scallions]

Can someone help me out with these three panels from the manga I’m trying to read?

ひとり暮らしして長いけどこんな風に生活を考えるのって

I have no idea what this って is. I can only find information on the casual quoting って, assuming this is it I have no idea how you would interpret this.

流しがキレイになると

Again, another use of と that completely flies over my head…

反対側も気になってくる

I’m only adding this because I was wondering if this is apart of 流しがキレイになると, but in a different panel. Like;

流しがキレイになると反対側も気になってくる

I’d also like to ask how does one effectively learn to read manga? I find manga infuriatingly difficult to read, but nonfiction texts and websites are quite ““easy”” for me (the biggest hurdle being vocab in those cases). Even after “reading” the 4 volumes of 日本人の知らない日本語 I still feel that reading manga is a herculean task.

[pm215]

First one is quotative (is there following text?). Second one is the if/when と and does connect to the following text. Hard to be more specific without context.

[pm215]

@scallions

I’d also like to ask how does one effectively learn to read manga? I find manga infuriatingly difficult to read, but nonfiction texts and websites are quite ““easy”” for me (the biggest hurdle being vocab in those cases).

The (unhelpful) answer I think is that you learn to read manga by reading manga. The main thing that makes it tricky is that it has more casual-speech contractions, dropping of things that are understood from context[*], and so on than non-fiction texts, because it’s generally representing the spoken word. If you read enough manga you’ll pick up on these things. Practice with other forms of comprehension of spoken dialogue (eg listening practice of similar kinds of casual speech dialogues) probably also helps.

[*] As in the real world, because you can see the things being referred to in manga dialogues, it’s often not necessary to explicitly spell out exactly what all the subjects and objects are when they’re obvious.

[scallions]

Oh, the only other thing in that panel is

初めてかも

Do these connect? The part in my first post is off to the side, the part in this post is in a thought bubble. All the parts not put in thought/speech bubbles are her thoughts anyway, though…

If it helps, I can try to help you picture the scene;

The book is about a woman living on her own in a very disorderly manner, she wants to start making changes, and this section is her really cleaning up and organizing for the first time. The scene directly preceding this was her having finished setting up the kitchen sink area and looking at it feeling pleased.

[pm215]

I’d have to see the panel layout to be sure (maybe you could take a photo and attach it to a post if that’s not too awkward?) but they certainly logically fit together: “I’ve been living alone for a long time, but this might be the first time I’ve thought about life/living[*] this way…”.

[*] terrible translation of 生活 but you get the idea I hope.

One of the difficulties of manga that isn’t present in more formal texts is that it doesn’t generally have clear sentence boundaries, and so you have rely more on your grammar knowledge to correctly identify whether something is the end of a sentence or if the grammar structure means it must continue into a following panel. This isn’t assisted by the tendency in spoken Japanese to not actually finish a sentence but instead to leave it hanging half-finished if the conclusion is “obvious”…

[pm215]

That context makes the other sentence clearer: “When the sink is clean, I/you start to want to deal with the other side (of the room, I guess).”

[scallions]

Thank you for all your help, it’s definitely making more sense now. I’m sure you’re interpretation without the photo is fine, but, just in case you could make any better judgments with the photo, I’ll go ahead and provide it;

I’d also like to ask how this って is working? From a grammar knowledge standpoint I don’t get at all what it even does here. I’d also like to ask how I can next time logically connect the parts like that, is it just a bit of a puzzle you have to make sense of?

[pm215]

って is tricky because it has a wide range of uses:

• Sometimes it’s just equivalent to と and the verb follows it, like 金を貸してくれって頼まれた.
• Sometimes it’s equivalent to と and the verb is left implied, usually being いう.
• Sometimes it’s introducing a topic and is equivalent to というのは, eg あなたって親切な人ね. (This is the case in this manga line.) Generally something will follow it in this case.
• Sometimes it’s marking hearsay and is equivalent to …ということだ or …そうだ, eg 君、委員になったんだってね. In this case it’s always at the end of the sentence.

(These senses and examples are from 大辞泉; I skipped some of the others it lists…)

I think you effectively need to develop a feel for what sort of grammar construct is the plausible expected one, which then tells you whether you should be expecting that it’s the end of a sentence or linking to the next part.

[jneapan]

In this part, the text on the right and the text on the left are part of the same thought.

ひとり暮(ぐ)らしして長(なが)いけどこんな風(ふう)に生活(せいかつ)を考(かんが)えるのって初(はじ)めてかも

考えるの = 考えること. The の here is a nominalizer, it turns the verb phrase into a noun. What the って usually does in situations like this is stand in for a というのは, but you don’t have to think about it that complicated. You can think of the Nounって pattern as a way to introduce a new topic of discussion and say something about it, usually something explanatory, something along the lines of “So this thing, let me tell you about it”.

こんな風に考えるのって (thinking in such a way) 初めてかも (maybe it’s the first time). Or, to put it into natural English, “It might be the first time I’m thinking this way”.

Does this explanation make more sense to you?

[scallions]

Yes, thank you guys so much.

[scallions]

20代のときはいつ友達や彼氏がきてもいいようにって思ってたけど

Hey, guys. A couple questions about this. Is this supposed to be いつ or いつも? Either way, what is it’s effect in this sentence? And is this the sentence ending ように? I wonder because technically it isn’t the end of the sentence, but is the end of her thought.

[alo]

@scallions

A couple questions about this. Is this supposed to be いつ or いつも?

いつ is “when” or “at what time”, いつも is “always”. Here it’s used with the ように to say something like “friends and boyfriends are going to come along at any time now” with the ように expressing the hope/wish for something.

@scallions

And is this the sentence ending ように?

Yup, that’s why it has the hoping/wishing meaning.

[pm215]

As always, without context it’s about five times harder to answer questions, because in general Japanese is a high-context language and the information you need to confidently translate a sentence is not in the sentence itself…

Anyway, I would interpret this differently from @alo:

20代のときはいつ友達や彼氏がきてもいいようにって思ってたけど

“When I was in my 20s I used to think [unstated thing] should be such that friends or my boyfriend could come any time.”

いつきてもいい == it’s OK whatever time you come

For instance here is a very short blog post titled いつ彼氏がきてもいいように which is about the blogger cleaning their house because she thinks her boyfriend might come round this week so she wants to keep it clean just in case.

If this sentence is from the same manga I’m thinking the idea here is the same – the speaker used to always keep her place tidy so friends could just drop by, but she’s gotten slack about it since she was younger.

[alo]

@pm215

As always, without context it’s about five times harder to answer questions, because in general Japanese is a high-context language and the information you need to confidently translate a sentence is not in the sentence itself…

That’s a good point.

@pm215

If this sentence is from the same manga I’m thinking the idea here is the same – the speaker used to always keep her place tidy so friends could just drop by, but she’s gotten slack about it since she was younger.

With that context I would agree with your take.

[scallions]

You’re right about the context. But… instead of fishing around to confirm that, I have bigger problems on my hands. My interpretation initially wasn’t even close to what you came up with. So now I feel like I have some grave misunderstandings about something, but I’m not sure what…

I thought the いつ was some short version of いつも, and thought the sentence was like

“When I was in my 20s I always wanted to allow friends and boyfriends to come over”.

I completely missed the mark and I have no idea why… Judging by how I read it, what do you think I missed? Do I not understand てもいい? I thought きてもいいように is like “I want/wish to allow them to come over”. Very very very confused right now!

[WeebPotato]

@scallions

I thought the いつ was some short version of いつも, and thought the sentence was like

“When I was in my 20s I always wanted to allow friends and boyfriends to come over”.

Well, you’re not so far in the sense that いつも = いつ + も both in syntax and in meaning. But both いつ and いくら are often used as those interjections I think.

@scallions

Do I not understand てもいい? I thought きてもいいように is like “I want/wish to allow them to come over”.

Technically yes, but practically 〜ていい and 〜てもいい roughly mean “~ is okay” with the latter being a little stronger.

[scallions]

Alright, thanks guys. I read it over a few times and I get it now. I’m new to reading manga so I think my biggest issue is the lack of contextual awareness on my part. It makes sense to keep in mind the cleanliness of the house, and that she wishes to keep it so that it would make it permissible for people to come over, as @pm215 stated.

[pm215]

I don’t think いつも ever shortens to いつ – the two are different meanings. (Though I’m always a bit wary of making “never X” statements…)

[scallions]

Okay, thanks. I wasn’t sure myself, and I didn’t know how to interpret いつ at the time so I figured it would be the case that it was いつも. The issue is the dictionary entry. “At any time” makes 100% sense vs ‘when’ or ‘at what time’.

edit:

It’s also listed as a ‘pronoun’. But isn’t it working temporally/adverbially here??

[jneapan]

I think I understand a bit where your confusion comes from. However, いつ by itself just means the question word “when”. What I’m about to say applies to other question words like どこ (where) and だれ (who), because they work similarly.

When you add も to these, they become sort of ambiguous, in that, while いつ refers to a specific point in time, いつも refers to ALL points in time, that’s why it’s usually translated as “always”. どこも refers to all points in space which is why it’s usually translated to “everywhere”, and だれも refers to all people instead of a specific person, which is why it’s usually translated as “everyone” or “anyone”.

However, this is for basic sentences usually. If you mix other constructions that use も, like in your case いつ来(き)てもいい, the も in the 来(き)ても construction also works on the いつ before, making it effectively a いつも.

いつ来(く)る？ by itself means “when will (subject) come?”, and 来(き)てもいい by itself means “it’s ok to come”. By combining them as いつ来(き)てもいい you’re basically making it into “it’s ok to come anytime”.

20代のときは - as for the time of my twenties (marking the topic)

いつ友達や彼氏がきてもいい - “It’s ok for friends or boyfriend to come anytime”

ように - This is a bit harder to translate, but you can think of ように as a way to describe a desired outcome and connect it to an action done for that specific outcome. For example いつ友達(ともだち)が来(き)てもいいように、部屋(へや)を片付(かたづ)けた。I cleaned my room SO THAT my friend can come anytime. I think, based on the context mentioned, this is what the person who said this meant, only with the 部屋(へや)を片付(かたづ)けた part being omitted because it can be inferred from the context

って思ってた - this marks the previous phrase as something this person thought about, it’s the usual quotation って.

So, to put all the pieces into place, the person, in her 20’s, used to do something (omitted in the sentence but inferred to be cleaning up the room), in order for it to be ok for her friends or boyfriend to come anytime.

Does that help clear up the misunderstanding?