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[anon33985902]

@yamitenshi

he correct transcript is とーちゃん手(て)がはなせないからな俺(おれ)の分(ぶん)もよつばがふってくれ (note the elongated vowel)

Yes I actually stupidly took out the ー because ichi.moe just said it meant nothing!

@yamitenshi

That particular sentence is probably the trickiest one in the entire chapter, because it suddenly hits you with implicit objects. And you’re not used to implicit objects. Or implicit subjects. Or implicit anything, really, because English requires a lot of information to be repeated for a complete sentence, all things considered

OKAY good! HAHA. I’m glad I won’t be encountering that kind of a sentence all the time, it definitely deflated me a little bit!

@yamitenshi

One thing that tips you off that は is not the topic marker here is that は as the topic marker never combines with が as the subject marker

I suspected this but I still know so little I just listened to ichi.moe - again, bad mistake!

@yamitenshi

が, を or も. In the case of が or を it replaces those particles, in the case of も you end up just using も.

I like も so far, he seems simple

@yamitenshi

Don’t worry about struggling with this one. The degree to which Japanese leaves things implicit takes a lot of getting used to, and it trips me up sometimes to this day - it does get better, though

Yes implicit is extremely convoluted to me right now. I always like to hear the words “It gets better, though”

@yamitenshi

As opposed to English, there’s only one thing that Japanese needs in order to make a sentence “complete”, and that’s a predicate - which is just the part of a sentence that gives some information about the subject, basically. That can be an action, a description, or a whole host of other things.

Okay Cure Dolly has been starting off slowly in this direction. Perhaps I need to go back and review her first 3 lessons. I have decided that I am definitely not a fan of Bunpro for me at this time. I’d much rather spend 45 minutes butchering a sentence in よつばと！than 5 minutes staring at their grammar pages!!!

@yamitenshi

with a poor grasp of the language, 話(はな)した is a complete and (within context) natural sentence that can absolutely mean something as complex as “why yes, I did indeed talk to my surprisingly understanding boss yesterday about not being able to meet the deadline for our extremely important project that will bankrupt us if we lose our client’s trust”, and “赤(あか)いね” can mean “As you can see, this Magikarp I caught just now is red once again for the umpteenth time in a row.” As long as all those extra bits have already been addressed or are obvious from contextual clues, you can just leave them off, and you’ll find Japanese speakers will routinely do so.

Oh my goodness. I don’t even know how to respond to that! Except I think I prefer 金 Magikarp

@yamitenshi

Translation: “Dad can’t take his hands off the wheel, so do my share of waving as well, Yotsuba”

It’s basically two sentences: 父(とう)ちゃん手(て)が放(はな)せないからな and 俺(おれ)の分(ぶん)もよつばがふってくれ

父(とう)ちゃん手(て)が放(はな)せないからな:

This one’s super casual and actually leaves a particle more or less “implied” (you could imagine a は after 父(とう)ちゃん). な is just a colloquial form of ね, and you can see it as just an interjection. から in this case just indicates this phrase is the reason for what he’s gonna say next. It’s implied, because he’s driving, that what he cannot take his hands off is the steering wheel. So with that as the context (I explain every part in a tooltip, hover over stuff to see more info):

Dad cannot let go [of the steering wheel] , you know, so …

So what? Well, the next sentence.

俺(おれ)の分(ぶん) just means “my part”
ふってくれ is an inflection of ふってくれる means “to wave for me” basically - 〜て just connects it to the auxiliary verb くれる meaning “to give” but only in the context of things being “given to” the speaker, basically - metaphorically in this case. So 〜てくれる basically means “to do ~ for me” - in this case “wave for me”.
くれ is just a casual imperative form of くれる.

So putting all that together this just means he’s telling Yotsuba to wave his part too - or, in more natural English, do his share of the waving as well. In a literal sense, what he’s saying is “Yotsuba, wave my part too, as a favour to me (because of くれる)”.

Or, in short, “Dad can’t let go of the wheel, so do my share of waving as well, Yotsuba” (or something along those lines - there’s more than one correct translation, the important parts here are the “can’t let go of the wheel” bit and that he’s asking Yotsuba to wave for him as well as for herself).

I am going to go over this very carefully and make sure I can understand it all! I’m sure I will since it’s from your entirely detail oriented assessment of page 3 in よつばと! vol. 1!!!

[yamitenshi]

@anon33985902

I’d much rather spend 45 minutes butchering a sentence in よつばと！than 5 minutes staring at their grammar pages!!!

Then by all means! I can’t say I blame you - Bunpro isn’t all that great at explaining grammar. It’s mostly useful as a very quick introduction to grammar points so you’re aware of their existence, and then you can recognise them when you encounter them. But if that just demotivates you, just drop it and do something else - plenty of way to learn grammar, and butchering sentences until you get them is 100% one of the most effective ones. And in all honesty, even with Bunpro, you’d still have to butcher sentences until you get it, I just found it slightly easier to do so than without Bunpro - but that’s less because Bunpro works and more because I can’t read anything longer than a short snippet without going off into YouTube or Wikipedia and not realising until three hours later that I never actually finished reading that one paragraph

@anon33985902

I think I prefer 金 Magikarp

Yes, so did Fubuki

That does actually illustrate the whole contextuality thing nicely. On its own 赤(あか)いな doesn’t mean much, but if you consider that 1) she’s looking for a shiny Magikarp, and 2) she got incredibly unlucky and took a ridiculously long time to actually find one… suddenly that simple phrase means a lot more.

And that goes for English too, if you’d said “red again…” in that context it would mean the same thing. It’s just that English is sometimes like that and Japanese is like that… well, pretty much always

Incidentally that’s also why translation software struggles with Japanese so much. Translation software doesn’t understand things, so there’s no way for it to build the context needed for a proper translation. That’s not a big deal in a lot of Indo-European languages because all the context you need is repeated in just about every sentence, but in a language like Japanese that leads to issues very quickly.

[anon33985902]

@yamitenshi

Then by all means! I can’t say I blame you - Bunpro isn’t all that great at explaining grammar. It’s mostly useful as a very quick introduction to grammar points so you’re aware of their existence, and then you can recognise them when you encounter them. But if that just demotivates you, just drop it and do something else - plenty of way to learn grammar, and butchering sentences until you get them is 100% one of the most effective ones. And in all honesty, even with Bunpro, you’d still have to butcher sentences until you get it, I just found it slightly easier to do so than without Bunpro - but that’s less because Bunpro works and more because I can’t read anything longer than a short snippet without going off into YouTube or Wikipedia and not realising until three hours later that I never actually finished reading that one paragraph

Okay I’m glad not everyone is a fan of Bunpro! I don’t mind the little quiz’s, but so far that’s the only way I’ve learned from them. Their teaching is definitely lacking. Cure Dolly is much nicer to listen to, and I’m very glad to hear that struggling to read is a great way to learn!

@yamitenshi

Yes, so did Fubuki

That does actually illustrate the whole contextuality thing nicely. On its own 赤(あか)いな doesn’t mean much, but if you consider that 1) she’s looking for a shiny Magikarp, and 2) she got incredibly unlucky and took a ridiculously long time to actually find one… suddenly that simple phrase means a lot more.

And that goes for English too, if you’d said “red again…” in that context it would mean the same thing. It’s just that English is sometimes like that and Japanese is like that… well, pretty much always

Incidentally that’s also why translation software struggles with Japanese so much. Translation software doesn’t understand things, so there’s no way for it to build the context needed for a proper translation. That’s not a big deal in a lot of Indo-European languages because all the context you need is repeated in just about every sentence, but in a language like Japanese that leads to issues very quickly.

HAHAHA I remember watching some of these videos (not VTubers) of people trying to catch shiny Pokemon. Magikarp, of course, is highly prized! I wonder if she said "赤いな。。。” When it evolved into a 赤い Gyrados

お礼 やみてんしーさん！

[ChristopherFritz]

@anon33985902

I thought it was a thought bubble for some reason.

For reference, here are thought bubbles:

The o O tail gives it away as a thought.

@anon33985902

I’d much rather spend 45 minutes butchering a sentence in よつばと！than 5 minutes staring at their grammar pages!!!

This is how I finally started learning grammar after failing at following grammar books for more years than I’d care to admit.

@anon33985902

I am going to go over this very carefully and make sure I can understand it all!

My recommendations for when you see such a detailed breakdown:

1. Be sure to read it all. (This applies more so to book clubs where there can be a lot of grammar discussion going on, and different people may explain the same concepts in different ways.)

2. Don’t worry if you don’t understand it all right away.

I believe the most important thing is to be exposed to the concepts (such as in grammar). You’re going to see them over and over again as you continue reading, so the sooner you learn of them, the more chances you’ll have to recognize them again later. And that makes it easier to grasp the grammar when you read about it again later to better understand it.

[yamitenshi]

Fair advance warning re: thought bubbles - sometimes you can also see thoughts or inner monologue from characters in rectangular blocks:

or just as overlaid text:

My general experience with these:

The thought bubbles are situationally relevant thoughts (what you could say out loud but don’t, basically)

The rectangular blocks are narration of sorts (so if they’re thoughts, they’re likely to be of the sort you see there, not the kind of thing you’d say out loud, more so just inner musings about yourself or your situation)

The overlaid text can be narration, dialogue or thoughts, but is generally done for dramatic effect (so for instance, in this case, it’s her “shock” at the main character’s scary face - but later on the same thing is used to express a sort of “looming” or “awkward” mention of “I already have this one” with relation to a gift she received).

So the nuances for each usage are different, even though all three can contain a character’s thoughts.

[anon33985902]

@ChristopherFritz

For reference, here are thought bubbles:

The o O tail gives it away as a thought.

Oh perfect! There we go

@ChristopherFritz

This is how I finally started learning grammar after failing at following grammar books for more years than I’d care to admit.

Oh! Vote #2 for muddling my way through literature! I am liking this very much.

@ChristopherFritz

My recommendations for when you see such a detailed breakdown:

1. Be sure to read it all. (This applies more so to book clubs where there can be a lot of grammar discussion going on, and different people may explain the same concepts in different ways.)
2. Don’t worry if you don’t understand it all right away.

I believe the most important thing is to be exposed to the concepts (such as in grammar). You’re going to see them over and over again as you continue reading, so the sooner you learn of them, the more chances you’ll have to recognize them again later. And that makes it easier to grasp the grammar when you read about it again later to better understand it.

Strong advice for sure! I always read posts in full but sometimes I grasp like 10% of an explanation and need to go back to it again (and again).

Thank you!

[anon33985902]

@yamitenshi

Fair advance warning re: thought bubbles - sometimes you can also see thoughts or inner monologue from characters in rectangular blocks:

or just as overlaid text:

Okay I can remember this easy too I think. Perhaps it’s because she looks like she’s dreaming?

@yamitenshi

or just as overlaid text:

I also think I can remember this (I hope )

@yamitenshi

The overlaid text can be narration, dialogue or thoughts, but is generally done for dramatic effect (so for instance, in this case, it’s her “shock” at the main character’s scary face - but later on the same thing is used to express a sort of “looming” or “awkward” mention of “I already have this one” with relation to a gift she received).

Ah yes, I assumed it to be her being surprised or in “shock” as you put it because of her facial expression. If it’s a nuance thing but I remember the general meaning of what you and @ChristopherFritz just explained I should get a feel for it eventually! Thank you!!

[anon33985902]

Okay it’s a little late in the evening for me to be posing a question, but I’m stuck on another bubble of よつばと！

(I could be completely off with all of this by the way. I THOUGHT Yotsuba’s bubbles were NOT the round ones… can she have both?)

Yotsuba: ついた？- Arrived?
Yotsuba: どこについた？- What place have we arrived at?

Dad: どこつて - I told you where.
And the part I’m really stuck on is the:
Dad: そりやおまえ… ichi.moe says そり = curve or shave, や is the particle for one of many things, and おまえ is most likely “you.”

Any help available would be much appreciated per usual

[yamitenshi]

@anon33985902

Dad: どこつて - I told you where.

That’s どこって (note the small っ) - って being a colloquial form of と言う (in this case “where, you say”)

@anon33985902

Dad: そりやおまえ… ichi.moe says そり = curve or shave, や is the particle for one of many things, and おまえ is most likely “you.”

That’s a small ゃ, so そりゃ, not そりや. That said, ichi.moe still won’t make much sense here, it’s a bit too colloqual for that.

It’s a followup to どこって, and it’s super colloqual and once again leaves a lot implied grammatically. そりゃ is a colloquial form of それは, but as you it doesn’t actually contain the “relevant” part of the sentence, it just leaves that bit to be inferred from tone and context. Compare it to saying “that’s…” and then trailing off in English, your facial expression is going to convey what you’re trying to say, and in this case it’s the same thing.

If you look at his facial expression and the little bead of sweat, he’s essentially just exasperated, and that’s what he’s conveying here. It’s hard to give a translation, but it’s something along the lines of “Where, you ask? Oh, you…” - he’s expressing his exasperation at Yotsuba asking where they’ve arrived. The next panels will show you why exactly.

The thing here is, they’re moving. Presumably, he told Yotsuba about that - but after all the preparations and actually transporting their stuff (hence him driving a mini truck) she’s completely unaware of what’s going on and asking him where they’ve actually headed. He’s completely incredulous that she’d ask that, since if she’d been paying any attention for presumably any amount of time in the past few weeks, she’d have been aware that they’ve arrived at their new house.

You see that in the next panels - he says to her that this is their new house, and Yotsuba is completely confused by that, showing she had no idea where they were headed and why.

You’ll notice this pattern of Yotsuba essentially being completely unaware of the world around her a lot in this manga, it’s basically the whole “thing” about Yotsuba as a character - she’s not just a normal kind of childlike, she experiences the world around her in an entirely different way and seems to constantly have her head in the clouds, blissfully unaware of social norms, utterly lacking in common sense and completely unaware of what should be obvious to any reasonable person. It’s childlike wonder taken to an extreme, essentially.

EDIT: also

@anon33985902

I could be completely off with all of this by the way. I THOUGHT Yotsuba’s bubbles were NOT the round ones… can she have both?

Yes, she can have both. Round bubbles are for normal speaking voice, the pointy ones are for LOUD NOISES, basically

[ChristopherFritz]

@anon33985902

(I could be completely off with all of this by the way. I THOUGHT Yotsuba’s bubbles were NOT the round ones… can she have both?)

The bubbles signify “how” the dialogue is spoken, so you’ll see one character use different types.

The rounded ones are for normal speaking (when there’s a “>” tail) or thinking (when there’s a “O o” tail). In some cases, there won’t be a tail, which typically means it’s spoken by someone not in the panel.

Then you get the “spikey” ones, like in your picture here. That’s for a raised voice, such as speaking in a loud volume or shouting, as well as for exclamation.

Wavy can mean someone is flustered or uneasy, a bit shakey.

Cloud-like can mean someone is cheery or buoyant in their speech.

I don’t recall offhand if either of these come up in Yotsuba (they probably do at some point).

You don’t have to remember these, however. For these “emotion” word balloons, they often align with the speaker’s facial expression, and simply add to the impact or feel of how the line is spoken.

[anon33985902]

Apologies for the late reply! Ton of reviews and lessons this morning

@yamitenshi

That’s どこって (note the small っ) - って being a colloquial form of と言う (in this case “where, you say”)

@yamitenshi

That’s a small ゃ, so そりゃ, not そりや. That said, ichi.moe still won’t make much sense here, it’s a bit too colloqual for that.

Yes I tried both! The difference in the font size is extremely insignificant, so this is something I will have to get used to for sure.

@yamitenshi

It’s a followup to どこって, and it’s super colloqual and once again leaves a lot implied grammatically. そりゃ is a colloquial form of それは, but as you it doesn’t actually contain the “relevant” part of the sentence, it just leaves that bit to be inferred from tone and context. Compare it to saying “that’s…” and then trailing off in English, your facial expression is going to convey what you’re trying to say, and in this case it’s the same thing.

Yes I seem to be getting tripped up quite a bit on this implied grammar so to speak. I can infer to a small extent, but it has definitely not been easy for me (I don’t expect it would be given how novice I am!) I always pay close attention to the facial expressions, but they can definitely lead you in a different direction too if you don’t know the context.

@yamitenshi

If you look at his facial expression and the little bead of sweat, he’s essentially just exasperated, and that’s what he’s conveying here. It’s hard to give a translation, but it’s something along the lines of “Where, you ask? Oh, you…” - he’s expressing his exasperation at Yotsuba asking where they’ve arrived. The next panels will show you why exactly.

@yamitenshi

The thing here is, they’re moving. Presumably, he told Yotsuba about that - but after all the preparations and actually transporting their stuff (hence him driving a mini truck) she’s completely unaware of what’s going on and asking him where they’ve actually headed. He’s completely incredulous that she’d ask that, since if she’d been paying any attention for presumably any amount of time in the past few weeks, she’d have been aware that they’ve arrived at their new house.

You see that in the next panels - he says to her that this is their new house, and Yotsuba is completely confused by that, showing she had no idea where they were headed and why.

I too noticed the bead of sweat! This box makes much more sense now. Thank you for this super detailed step-by-step explanation It’s helpful to see what one actually has to do to read manga.

@yamitenshi

You see that in the next panels - he says to her that this is their new house, and Yotsuba is completely confused by that, showing she had no idea where they were headed and why.

You’ll notice this pattern of Yotsuba essentially being completely unaware of the world around her a lot in this manga, it’s basically the whole “thing” about Yotsuba as a character - she’s not just a normal kind of childlike, she experiences the world around her in an entirely different way and seems to constantly have her head in the clouds, blissfully unaware of social norms, utterly lacking in common sense and completely unaware of what should be obvious to any reasonable person. It’s childlike wonder taken to an extreme, essentially.

HAHA I like this about Yotsuba already! She seems like a goofy oblivious cute thing kind of like a kitten

@yamitenshi

Yes, she can have both. Round bubbles are for normal speaking voice, the pointy ones are for LOUD NOISES , basically

DEFINITELY good to know! This was a huge question I had. Well, 5 pages down (including the title page because I read the words “Yotsuba & Moving”)! I plan on 6 and 7 today, but they have much more conversation on them, so we’ll see what happens. I wish this Manga had page numbers so it’s easier to update on the Natively website…

ありがとう やみてんし！

[anon33985902]

@ChristopherFritz

The bubbles signify “how” the dialogue is spoken, so you’ll see one character use different types.

The rounded ones are for normal speaking (when there’s a “>” tail) or thinking (when there’s a “O o” tail). In some cases, there won’t be a tail, which typically means it’s spoken by someone not in the panel.

Then you get the “spikey” ones, like in your picture here. That’s for a raised voice, such as speaking in a loud volume or shouting, as well as for exclamation.

Wavy can mean someone is flustered or uneasy, a bit shakey.

Cloud-like can mean someone is cheery or buoyant in their speech.

I don’t recall offhand if either of these come up in Yotsuba (they probably do at some point).

You don’t have to remember these, however. For these “emotion” word balloons, they often align with the speaker’s facial expression, and simply add to the impact or feel of how the line is spoken.

Okay this detailed explanation is *very helpful! I don’t know why I assumed the round ones were attributed to the dad only, it makes perfect sense that the “mood” of the bubble signifies the way they are talking! So:

Round = normal
Spiky = excited/surprised
Oo = thought
Wavy = flustered/uneasy
Cloud = cheery/buoyant
*often aligned with speakers facial expression.

I will keep an eye out for them in よつばと！ (I mean I do have all 15 volumes, they are bound to show up somewhere!) At a rate of 2 pages per day who knows how long it will take - but I’m determined!

[anon33985902]

Happy New Year, everyone!

@yamitenshi @ChristopherFritz @crmsnprincess89 @WeebPotato @Daisoujou @MagicalGrill @fallynleaf @bakugames @ccookf

I figured since it’s the first of a new year I’d like to journal a monthly update for myself (and you!). If I tagged you it’s because you have helped me quite a bit in my study log thus far, and apologies if I happened to miss someone!

I first explored WaniKani last year for a little over a month, getting into level 3 at that time. I came back and reset everything on November 25 (Thanksgiving), so it’s been a little over a month now. I am working toward finishing up level 6 in a few days, but I have learned some pretty basic things about my own learning style, of which I will briefly bullet-point below:

• Kanji: I feel like I’m keeping up with the Kanji fairly well overall, and I use the Self-Study Quiz user-script daily to go back to previous levels. I have created many custom quiz modes and suspect I’ll be creating a few more.
• Vocabulary: I have been advised that WK is not the best teacher of vocabulary as it is primarily set up to teach Kanji. I do not mind this at all, it just means I will have to learn more vocabulary in other ways.
• Grammar: Thanks to many for advising me about this, because I’ve learned a few things that are helping me most. 1) Forum help! - I ask so many questions that people are kind enough to take the time and answer so thoroughly, and even if I have to re-read it, I eventually get more and more out of it. 2) Cure Dolly! - At first her voice was like fingernails on a chalk board, but now I actually like it! I have currently gone through her first 3 lessons, just trying to solidify が は だ を に basics. 3) Trying to read Manga! - This is super exciting for me, and even though I’ve needed a lot of forum help to get started, I have been told that reading immersion is one of the best ways to learn grammar. I know I prefer this over Bunpro as I was learning very little with their grammar points during my free trial. 4) More to come! Others have recommended things like the Tae Kim’s Guide to Learning Japanese website, but I have yet to explore that more.
• Resources I Like So Far:
  Wanikani User-Scripts - I have around 18-20 that I’m currently using. They help my slightly OCD brain organize my learning experience the way I’d prefer it while maximizing the benefit of WaniKani’s SRS.
  Japanese Dictionaries - Jisho / Shirabe Jisho for iPhone (even better IMO!)
  ichi.moe (for parsing sentences and trying to read at such a low level of understanding!)
  Natively (learnnatively/com) - Cool newer website for comparing and grading books for difficulty. I just use it to track my reading at this point, but it is set up nicely to do so! https://learnnatively.com/user/Shenmue/

Overall, the most goes out to those who I’ve connected with through this thread and others! Without you I would be severely lacking in understanding to this point

[Daisoujou]

Congrats on all your progress so far! Learning how you best learn this stuff is a huge step at the beginning, so it’s nice that you’re being so attentive to figuring all that out. And really, I have to say, this is impressively early to be tackling manga. Some people just jump into real Japanese right at the beginning for a trial by fire and it always impresses me. I had to hide out in textbooks and graded readers for a couple months, learning vocab from lists and studying grammar until I had a theoretical tentative near-N4 level (I’m sure I wouldn’t have passed but I had been at least exposed to most of the ~N4 info) before I could bring myself to start on real reading.

[anon33985902]

@Daisoujou

Congrats on all your progress so far! Learning how you best learn this stuff is a huge step at the beginning, so it’s nice that you’re being so attentive to figuring all that out. And really, I have to say, this is impressively early to be tackling manga. Some people just jump into real Japanese right at the beginning for a trial by fire and it always impresses me. I had to hide out in textbooks and graded readers for a couple months, learning vocab from lists and studying grammar until I had a theoretical tentative near-N4 level (I’m sure I wouldn’t have passed but I had been at least exposed to most of the ~N4 info) before I could bring myself to start on real reading.

Thank you! I’m glad to hear that attuning my learning style is important, because it feels that way. And yes, I am kind of surprised that I am just jumping in to reading (albeit with a lot of help from you all and ichi.moe ). Experience is always my best teacher, and reading a grammar point on Bunpro did not seem to be doing the job. I also have the All About Particles book which is highly rated, but I’m a little intimidated by it because it goes through "は” (for example) and shows like 12 grammar points for it. Congrats on passing N4! Sounds like you know your learning style too. Here’s a question for you: Why are so many people focused on N5 to N1? Is it because they are studying Japanese academically or with hopes to work in Japan and need a certain level of fluency? For me, I really don’t care too much about being tested (plus I hate test!!)

[Daisoujou]

@anon33985902

Congrats on passing N4! Sounds like you know your learning style too. Here’s a question for you: Why are so many people focused on N5 to N1? Is it because they are studying Japanese academically or with hopes to work in Japan and need a certain level of fluency? For me, I really don’t care too much about being tested (plus I hate test!!)

Oh, so I didn’t actually mean to imply I passed the test! I haven’t taken any JLPT test for real. In my case it’s just an easy shorthand (all the flaws of the rating system aside) to very roughly estimate where I am in ability. Like I want to say I’m not ready for the N3, but in overall Japanese comfort, I’d estimate I’m somewhere currently inching towards it. But since I learn only through real reading and listening now, I know loads of N1 or N2 grammar points or words and don’t know plenty of N3 ones because language learning isn’t linear. But it’s still a semi-understood benchmark for some of where one’s overall abilities are so that, when it’s not the point, I don’t have to spend a few paragraphs trying to describe how my comprehension is in what I’m reading, haha. It also works a little better at N5 or N4 for this too, because those are such basic building blocks, most everyone has to go through in the same rough order before diverging more the further in your studies you get.

Otherwise, yeah, unless you want the test for personal reasons to gauge your progress, or need the evidence for the sort of reasons you listed (and for those purposes, anything below N2 seems pretty unimportant)… the JLPT isn’t too significant and certainly has a lot of flaws in how it measures abilities. Unless my life takes a big unexpected turn, if I ever take it, it’ll be far in the future, after I feel like I’ve got everything down so well that I can confidently walk into the N1 and pass it. I’ve got no real intentions to study for the test and it’s not a meaningful goal for me, at the moment.

Oh and also, since you mention は in particular… yeah for what a basic building block that particle is, it can be deceptively complicated, especially detangling it from が. I dunno if I’ve got it down fully yet, honestly. I wouldn’t bother thinking too much about the nuances at this stage, but at a later point, if it’s something on your mind and that book isn’t clearing it up for you, I bet some people here could have good resources on the topic.

[anon33985902]

@Daisoujou

I know loads of N1 or N2 grammar points or words and don’t know plenty of N3 ones because language learning isn’t linear.

I see! Yes I have that user-script and it says I already like like 0.1% of N1 hah! Long ways to go!

@Daisoujou

ut it’s still a semi-understood benchmark for some of where one’s overall abilities are so that, when it’s not the point, I don’t have to spend a few paragraphs trying to describe how my comprehension is in what I’m reading, haha. It also works a little better at N5 or N4 for this too, because those are such basic building blocks, most everyone has to go through in the same rough order before diverging more the further in your studies you get.

Okay so this is why most people use this as a benchmark, whether or not they are really going to be seeking the official tests.

@Daisoujou

if I ever take it, it’ll be far in the future, after I feel like I’ve got everything down so well that I can confidently walk into the N1 and pass it.

Same here. If I ever wanted to take N5 for fun and was far enough along to be interested in higher levels I’d do it, but for now it’s definitely not on my list of goals!

@Daisoujou

especially detangling it from が. I dunno if I’ve got it down fully yet, honestly. I wouldn’t bother thinking too much about the nuances at this stage, but at a later point, if it’s something on your mind and that book isn’t clearing it up for you, I bet some people here could have good resources on the topic.

GOOD to know! I think I just need to focus on は as Cure Dolly teaches it to me and I encounter it in my reading. If I want to try and “untangle it” later I think the All About Particles book will be helpful with that as it has example sentences and all.

[ChristopherFritz]

@anon33985902

but I’m a little intimidated by it because it goes through "は” (for example) and shows like 12 grammar points for it.

Eventually, you’ll get used to all the different scenarios presented in those examples, and you’ll better understand how all the examples are essentially one usage, in various situations with their own individual nuances.

It’s sort of like how if you pick up a book about dogs, it may talk about labrador retrievers, and German shepherds, and beagles and Yorkshire terriers, and poodles and dachshunds, and so on. They’re all dogs, but they have different traits and specialties.

Likewise, if you see a particle with ten different examples of usage, it’s different usages for the same concept.

Luckily, Cure Dolly’s videos do a good job at explaining it in a way that should help with the overall concept, which may ultimately make it easier to work through the different scenarios you’ll see it in.

@Daisoujou

Oh and also, since you mention は in particular… yeah for what a basic building block that particle is, it can be deceptively complicated, especially detangling it from が. I dunno if I’ve got it down fully yet, honestly.

It wasn’t until I watched Cure Dolly’s videos on は and が that I finally started to realize how different the two are conceptually. Every other resource I’ve read conflated the two as if they were essentially the same thing, which only helped keep me from grasping the topic-comment structure in a topic-prominent language, and how it differs from the subject-prominent English.

@Daisoujou

I wouldn’t bother thinking too much about the nuances at this stage

I agree with this. It’s better to get the basics down, and as you get into reading (and listening/watching if you incorporate these), you’ll start to see those different situations, and it’ll be easier to understand them if you re-read sections of All About Particles and other resources.

[anon33985902]

@ChristopherFritz

It’s sort of like how if you pick up a book about dogs, it may talk about labrador retrievers, and German shepherds, and beagles and Yorkshire terriers, and poodles and dachshunds, and so on. They’re all dogs, but they have different traits and specialties.

Great example! You also forgot Huskies!

@ChristopherFritz

Luckily, Cure Dolly’s videos do a good job at explaining it in a way that should help with the overall concept, which may ultimately make it easier to work through the different scenarios you’ll see it in.

Yeah she’s like a no nonsense “here’s how to best view learning Japanese as a whole” kind of a teacher. She makes you feel confident that some things are as simple as you could ask for, you just need to be introduced to them the right way.

@ChristopherFritz

It wasn’t until I watched Cure Dolly’s videos on は and が that I finally started to realize how different the two are conceptually. Every other resource I’ve read conflated the two as if they were essentially the same thing, which only helped keep me from grasping the topic-comment structure in a topic-prominent language, and how it differs from the subject-prominent English.

Yes that’s what it seemed like on Bunpro, and she clearly and succinctly explains how が is always there, even if it’s a “zero が” and can’t be seen. I still need to go over that video for a third time and make a quick note or two so I can move forward and make sure I’m learning at the pace she teaches.

@ChristopherFritz

I agree with this. It’s better to get the basics down, and as you get into reading (and listening/watching if you incorporate these), you’ll start to see those different situations, and it’ll be easier to understand them if you re-read sections of All About Particles and other resources.

Okay great, I’m glad I’ll likely get some more use out of that book in the future!!!

[anon33985902]

@Beyond_Sleepy I just had to say I saw your user-card after you liked a post of mine and I had to look up Toki Pona! Wikipedia’s general description has fascinated me! Do you mind if I ask what interested you in learning it?