Japanese Sentence a Day Challenge

[WeebPotato]

僕が翌年日本に旅行に行くようにと願っていて、今夜はそんなことを夢見たいんです。

I hope to travel to Japan the following year and I want to dream about it tonight.

[yamitenshi]

That combination of ように and と confuses me, it feels as though it’s missing something. Is that some grammar I’m not familiar with or is the phrase you’ve marked with と just incomplete? I feel like in order to be grammatical there should be a verb there (wouldn’t know what though - but then I’m not entirely sure what purpose ように is serving there at all).

[WeebPotato]

@yamitenshi

That combination of ように and と confuses me, it feels as though it’s missing something. Is that some grammar I’m not familiar with or is the phrase you’ve marked with と just incomplete? I feel like in order to be grammatical there should be a verb there (wouldn’t know what though - but then I’m not entirely sure what purpose ように is serving there at all).

〜ようにと願う is the full grammar structure. The と there is optional. It’s one of those usages of ように expressing a want to do something or for something to happen and the other part is と願う or in a more formal and specific context と祈る.

[yamitenshi]

Ah, I knew of ように祈る (you can even omit the 祈る entirely from that I believe?), I had no idea you could optionally add a と in there!

[WeebPotato]

@yamitenshi

Ah, I knew of ように祈る (you can even omit the 祈る entirely from that I believe?), I had no idea you could optionally add a と in there!

I think if you omit 祈る and leave ように it might mean something else depending on the context. Or at least the nuance might be a little different, not sure.

Yeah, I feel like the と in there is one of those と動詞 combinations that translate well into English, but at least to me are hard to explain . As in, hard to explain why in some places を can be used and in some と is better suited.

[yamitenshi]

I think the key part of と is it marks a complete phrase and not just a single word and its modifiers. You see the same with 〜と同時に, instinctively you might be inclined to use の or some other particle but that would mark only the preceding word and any adjectives (in case of a noun) or adverbs (in case of a verb) acting on it directly. With と you mark the entire preceding phrase, regardless of how many clauses and subclauses it may contain. Similar to how [verb]こと only marks the verb and [phrase]ということ marks the entire phrase instead of just the verb preceding it. (That’s just a hunch I have though, I can’t back that up)

This is what Bunpro has to say about omitting 祈る by the way:

So it seems to mostly be a thing in polite sentences.

[WeebPotato]

@yamitenshi

You see the same with 〜と同時に, instinctively you might be inclined to use の or some other particle but that would mark only the preceding word and any adjectives (in case of a noun) or adverbs (in case of a verb) acting on it directly.

I would argue that と同時に would take と because it’s 同時, the same way onomatopoeia often take と, and I definitely wouldn’t use の or anything else there. It just doesn’t feel right. I guess it would be safer to say と + certain verbs act as enders?

Edit: onomatopoeia take と after, not before . Genius me.
I also found 同時に without と so maybe the one with と covers the full phrase as you say.

@yamitenshi

Similar to how [verb]こと only marks the verb and [phrase]ということ marks the entire phrase instead of just the verb preceding it. (That’s just a hunch I have though, I can’t back that up)

Yeah, ということfor sure marks the entire phrase, but
Okay, this too can depend on context. If ということ is somewhere towards the end of a sentence, it can mark an entire clause, but it can also mark whatever directly precedes it. Same with verb + こと. If it’s a longer phrase or clause こと can act just like の to nominalize.

@yamitenshi

This is what Bunpro has to say about omitting 祈る by the way:

So it seems to mostly be a thing in polite sentences.

Hmmm Tobira explicitly mentions that the preceding verb is in plain non-past form . But yes, it does say that it’s a formal expression and it even feels formal. However, sometimes Tobira itself doesn’t follow this strictly.

@yamitenshi

(That’s just a hunch I have though, I can’t back that up)

That’s me most of the time . Just machine learning my way through context.

[Aralakh]

あなたはもうスーパーに行きましたか。もしない、野菜を買ってください。お願い！

[DIO-Berry]

今日(きょう)は行(い)かなかった。何(なに)も要(い)らない。行(い)ったか？

[Aralakh]

いいえ、僕も。でも、野菜は大切です。野菜がある元気人ですよ。たくさん肉も！肉、肉、肉。。。やった！

[Jyakarr]

もし、日本語はよくになりたい文法を勉強しなければならないけです。人生は難しい。

[yamitenshi]

@FirstMate-san

I guess it would be safer to say と + certain verbs act as enders?

同時 is a noun though?
I’d personally expect it to work a bit like 最中に, うちに, etc. - maybe those can work with と as well? I have no idea actually, would have to look into that. But they’re essentially being modified by whatever precedes them, with の for nouns, no particle for verbs and I guess な for na-adjectives (or just の and treat them as nouns I guess? Not sure there). Considering you can use 同時 without と as you say, maybe 同時 can work that way as well…

@FirstMate-san

Same with verb + こと. If it’s a longer phrase or clause こと can act just like の to nominalize.

I’ve always treated these as mostly interchangeable tbh, they both just nominalise a verb, right?

@FirstMate-san

Okay, this too can depend on context. If ということ is somewhere towards the end of a sentence, it can mark an entire clause, but it can also mark whatever directly precedes it. Same with verb + こと. If it’s a longer phrase or clause こと can act just like の to nominalize.

Do you happen to have any examples of this? I don’t know any better than の/こと being a verb nominaliser (or い-adjective nominaliser, but I’m starting to feel like there’s not much of a difference) and ということ being a phrase/clause nominaliser. I think you’ve learned a fair bit more grammar than I have though, so it makes sense you’d know something I don’t.

@FirstMate-san

Just machine learning my way through context.

That’s one way of describing it, yeah Do something random and see how wrong it is, adjust accordingly… Checks out

[WeebPotato]

今日日本語は一つじゃなく、三つの失敗をしっちゃった。T.T
多分、もっと寝なきゃならない・・・

Today I made not one, but three blunders in Japanese. T.T
Maybe I should sleep more…

@yamitenshi

同時 is a noun though?

What I meant to say is that it’s safe to assume it can be used with verbs to end a clause, but not sure about other uses.

@yamitenshi

I’d personally expect it to work a bit like 最中に, うちに, etc. - maybe those can work with と as well?

I’ve only ever seen うちに being used with nouns, adjectives and verbs:
ご飯が熱いうちに、食べてください。
Please eat while the meal is still hot.
そのうちに、世界が終わってしまう。
Sooner or later the world will end.
学校に出ないうちに、弟に宿題するのを手伝いなさい。
While you still haven’t left for school, do help your brother with homework.

@yamitenshi

Do you happen to have any examples of this? I don’t know any better than の/こと being a verb nominaliser (or い-adjective nominaliser, but I’m starting to feel like there’s not much of a difference) and ということ being a phrase/clause nominaliser. I think you’ve learned a fair bit more grammar than I have though, so it makes sense you’d know something I don’t.

Nah, I just probably know different uses, that’s all .

I would need to look for specific clear-cut examples, because both こと and ということ are so ubiquitous that they get thrown about a lot, but now that I thought about it some more I noticed that noun + ということ does mark only the noun, but if it was a clause, verb + ということ would likely mark the entire clause.

With の／こと there is plenty of stuff like this (lifted from Jisho):
新聞を束にするのを手伝ってくれ。
I would say they mark the entire preceding clause, but that too can depend on how you translate it, I guess?

[yamitenshi]

@FirstMate-san

What I meant to say is that it’s safe to assume it can be used with verbs to end a clause, but not sure about other uses.

Ah, check Yeah, that makes sense. Given the meaning it would probably be really weird with a noun anyway. I mean… “at the same time as soup” doesn’t sound very logical.

@FirstMate-san

With の／こと there is plenty of stuff like this (lifted from Jisho):
新聞を束にするのを手伝ってくれ。
I would say they mark the entire preceding clause, but that too can depend on how you translate it, I guess?

Hmm… yeah, that makes sense. I almost feel as if the distinction just doesn’t really translate well, and what’s happening in the Japanese grammar doesn’t show up clearly in English

One of these days I’m gonna have to look for monolingual grammar resources. I know monolingual dictionaries help tremendously in understanding nuances and differences between seeming synonyms, so I’m guessing the same would be true for descriptions of grammar.

There’s a good chance I won’t be able to make heads or tails of it though.

EDIT

Ah, I may have to just get the Dictionary of Japanese Gammar books:

1000×1000 11.8 KB

Do you have the Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar? If so there is a detailed explanation in there :)! Here is the outline of it. (Sentence = S) S ということ is used to represent a concept in the S rather than a fact. S こと is when S represents a fact (or near fact). But if it is a fact that the speaker knows by an indirect experience S ということ is okay. Or if S is likely to happen, both are okay. I think there is another point or two… but they have escaped my head.

So if I’m reading this correctly, it’s not necessarily phrase vs verb as I understood it, it’s more about the indirection inherent in こと that was described in the short grammar questions thread earlier in relation to ことがある.

So where 食べること always refers to the actual act of eating, 食べるということ refers to the idea of eating. Which may well be the same in translation, but not necessarily - and it’s much less direct in meaning.

[Jyakarr]

今年の健康チェックに８０キロになりました。ほんとにうれしいかった。でもそれは５月した。。。夏は熱すぎですね？全然運動しられなかった。太ってしまいました。そろそろクリスマスのときにくる。。。やばい。

At this year’s health check I was 80kg. I was really happy. But that was in May… Summer is too hot, isn’t it? I couldn’t exercise at all. I got fat. Soon Chirstmas time will come…
crap. (I feel like yabai doesn’t translate into English well).

[Aralakh]

すみません、それは何ですか。
あっ、目覚まし時計でしょう。
高いですか。なるほど。
じゃ、それだけください。ありがとうございます！

僕は目覚まし時計を要りましたがちょっと高かったです。でも、よく起きないから。仕方がない。

Excuse me, what is that? Oh, it’s an alarm clock. Is it expensive? I see. Then, please just give me that. Thank you very much!

I needed an alarm clock but, it was a little expensive. However, since I don’t wake up often. It can’t be helped.

[Souzuuka]

ね、木曜日に公園に花見し行きましょうか。

Shall we go Sakura viewing in the park on Thursday?

[febLey]

最近目が痛いので、昨日最初の眼鏡を買った。

My eyes have been hurting recently, so I’ve bought my first glasses yesterday.

[WeebPotato]

@Aralakh

僕は目覚まし時計を要りましたがちょっと高かったです。でも、よく起きないから。仕方がない。

楽しい話だと思います。

しょうしょう手伝ってあげるんですが。
「要る」は自動詞なので、「目覚まし時計を要りました」が正しくなかった気がします。
直し：
「目覚まし時計が要りましたが、ちょっと高かったです。」

Jishoで調べて、この例文を見つけました：
新しいペンが要るんだ。ペンを買うつもり なんだ。

I think it was a fun story.

I would like to help out a bit.
要る is an intransitive verb so “I needed an alarm clock” wasn’t correct, I feel.
Correction:
An alarm clock was needed, but it was a little expensive.

I looked up on Jisho and found this example sentence:
A new pen is needed. I intend to buy a pen.

@Souzuuka

ね、木曜日に公園に花見し行きましょうか。

そうですね。みんなで行きましょう。

たった今 、日本人にとって「漫画」ということが普通のマンガに気がつきました。

I just realized that for Japanese people “manga” is just a regular comics.

@yamitenshi

So if I’m reading this correctly, it’s not necessarily phrase vs verb as I understood it, it’s more about the indirection inherent in こと that was described in the short grammar questions thread earlier in relation to ことがある.

So where 食べること always refers to the actual act of eating, 食べるということ refers to the idea of eating. Which may well be the same in translation, but not necessarily - and it’s much less direct in meaning.

偶然にも今日は、とびらで「〜ということ」についての文法ノートを読んだ。とびらによると、文を名詞に変える場合には、「〜ということ」を使うことがあるけど、意味は同じだ。不思議に思うね・・・
NHKニュースを読む時は、よく「〜ということ」を見て、そのと同じぐらいの意味だ。つまり、「〜ということ」はときどき「〜こと」と同じぐらいの意味だ。

でも、もちろん、これは全部の説明じゃない。本当にまごまごしているなあ。

Incidentally, I read a grammar note about ということ in Tobira today. According to Tobira, when one wants to transform a sentence into a noun, ということ is used sometimes, but the meaning stays the same. Really makes me wonder…
When reading NHK News I often see ということ and it has a similar meaning. In other words, the meaning of ということ is sometimes about the same as that of こと.

But of course, that’s not the full explanation. I’m really at a loss.

[Souzuuka]

七点五足す二点五は十だよ。

7.5 + 2.5 is 10!