Is this use of です correct? りょくちゃは いい におい です

Perhaps surprisingly, I disagree with nothing you’ve said. Hahaha. And yeah, so, sometimes, while certain concepts are lost in translation, others are added in the process, meaning that it’s not necessarily possible for someone with a different experience of learning Japanese to explain things while accounting for the difficulties that another learner faces. I do prefer using Japanese to learn more about Japanese, but it is true that some things are better explained in English, especially when there is no equivalent in Japanese. :slight_smile:

Sure. I’ll just say, however, that I brought up the idea of ‘standards’ precisely because I was about to say I’m a prescriptivist and explain why I think standards are important. The two statements weren’t meant to be unrelated. However, in short, because I see that standards have significant social importance in the context of language, I take care to learn the stiffest, most standard and most respectable usage when I learn any language, for the express purpose of being understood and commanding respect while doing so.

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To be frankly, his entire attitude towards Kanji is a disaster. :rofl:
That’s exactly the reason why I would have never thought about reading something like that.
Romaji!!!
Well, but I came to believe it is better to read first and don’t judge only the appearance of things.

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The French Academy (l’Académie Française) claims to be descriptivist, but in practice, all its suggestions are prescriptivist, and much of the general public in France sees them as slow to adapt (and I think that’s something you wouldn’t say about descriptivists, whose job is simply to observe usage and document it). The attitudes behind each sort of grammar are quite different, as I see them, and I think it would be extremely painful – especially for me – to attempt to hold both of those attitudes within oneself. You might say that a sort of ‘conservative descriptivism’ is possible, but because language is perpetually evolving, you have nothing to shore up your position when the structures you believe to be correct or more elegant are swept away by usage. You can’t fight it as a descriptivist because usage is king, and usage has made its choice. The moment society is past its tipping point and formerly uncommon (not ‘incorrect’, because that can’t exist in descriptivism) usage has become the new mainstream, you are forced to either document the trend and accept it, or to cling to what used to be common and become a prescriptivist. I see no other way. If you’d like to show me how what I’ve just detailed is a false dichotomy, by all means do so, but when you’ve lived your entire life, from childhood constantly limiting yourself because you know that possibly up to 40% of your vocabulary has no place in the common usage of your country, and you can’t use it for fear of standing out and becoming a social pariah due to your excessively large lexicon, believe me, you’ll question whether or not descriptivism is a viable position for people who want to hang on to anything they’ve learnt in their language that doesn’t follow the trends of ceaselessly evolving common usage.

(In any case, I’m really contributing to derailing this thread, so I should probably stop…)

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That’s the normal condition for everyone I think if you replace “country” with family members, friends, co workers etc…

That’s the part that I think is in error: taking the extreme definitions of each viewpoint.

For example, look at the grammarly article on hanging prepositions:

It recognizes the informal usage while at the same time proscribing it in formal writing.

Deep changes to grammar happen over generations, just look at how English was 100 or 200 years ago. But at the same time, the grammar models are largely unchanged unless you go back more than that.

Aye I have the exact same experience. But as I looked more into language I realized that the nuances are deeper than I had realized.

There are recognized creole and pidgin grammars within English and I even use some of them. But I also don’t write like that when I have to submit an essay at school.

Aye, I’m probably guilty as well. :wink:

Carry on. lol

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I don’t think most people have to deal with the possibility of being a social outcast because they use a language too well, however. It’s usually the opposite: using a language well, while not being disagreeable about it, typically begets admiration, not sideways glances.

Well then, I guess the question is, what is descriptivist grammar? Or perhaps more helpfully, what’s prescriptivist grammar, since it seems to be the narrower of the two? If seeking standardisation and fixed rules isn’t its defining trait, then what is?

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From the Wikipedia page:

Linguistic prescription , or prescriptive grammar , is the establishment of rules defining preferred or correct usage of language

Despite being apparent opposites, prescription and description are often considered complementary

That second part is what’s usually missed when talking about it. Extreme prescriptivism is how languages like Hawaiian and Navajo were almost completely wiped out and what’s putting pressure on Singlish.

Complementary prescriptivism is what we have now where descriptive study is what linguists do and prescriptive rules are what schools do.

I can see the need for prescriptivism in much the same way you’ve explained, but I say I’m descriptivist because I think descriptivism should inform prescriptivism in a healthy society.

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So being ‘descriptivist’ or ‘prescriptivist’ is more a matter of which approach to grammar you prefer as a guiding principle, as opposed to which you would choose while excluding the other?

In practice though, nothing’s ever worked to stop people speaking it. It’s just too prevalent. Hahaha.

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Yup. That’s my stance anyway.

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Hm… I guess I’m more descriptivist in general then, except in the case of English. But that’s because I’m used to dealing with two related languages that constantly mix while the people in charge pretend that one of them isn’t a language in its own right (whereas as far as I can tell after studying various languages, it effectively is, albeit it would have a hard time existing without English supplementing its lexicon). Treating them as separate languages would probably lead to better results, in my opinion, including in terms of policymaking.

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I tested many ways how to become a social outcast and one of the most successful methods so far has been:

  • not going to the closest university but to the capital
  • coming home after a few weeks with a very natural nasal and snobbish high German in exchange for the local dialect I spoke before.

No admiration, many sideway glances and open hostility. :sweat_smile:

I think this is an universal problem everyone faces who is, or maybe better, has to, deviate from his groups dialect, and that also includes the range of vocabulary used.

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Dear Jonapedia: this is the only lazy argument I ever saw you writing here… You never read him but you have feelings… Ok… Listen: Jay Rubin is a 玄人 while Cure Dolly (RIP) is a 素人. Jay Rubin never rages against the mainstream, he just points (with lots of humour and insight) some shortcomings/mistakes that students and translators often do and that are not properly correct by teachers. Besides his vast work of translating Japanese authors, he taught Japanese for many years at universities. Just because Cure Dolly grabbed (I’m temped to say stole… but sometimes she gives him credit (but not always)) a couple of his ideas/points, you are making him guilty by association. His little book “Making Sense of Japanese” is a little gem that everyone should read after finishing Genki 2.

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To be fair, in some groups on the Internet, people tend to heavily conflate him with Cure Dolly so I can see where the view could originate from. I will say, as unfair as it might have been, I shared the same view as well until reading his book a while back.

But, yes, as you point out his tone is very different and is not full of the caustic dismissiveness, nor the use of nonstandard linguistics terms, that I think drives much of the divisiveness over Cure Dolly.

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Yeah, so, first of all, yes, this is exactly why I associated him with Cure Dolly. It’s not uncommon to see him mentioned in the same sentence, particularly when people want to cite an additional source for their ideas. His translations of Murakami’s works are often also cited as proof of his credibility. However, I remained dubious because the ideas mentioned alongside his name in those posts made little sense to me, and being a translator, even a professional one, is no guarantee of competence: I’ve seen plenty of translations that I didn’t like, particularly ones that leave out lots of the original nuances in a text, even when the languages involved are as close as English and French.

It is possible to have an impression of someone without knowing them well. That impression may be mistaken. It may also be correct. In any case, like I said, I wanted to be honest when I started that post. I was biased, I knew it, and I wanted to make that clear. I said I had reasons, which I briefly explained, but I didn’t claim to have evidence. Also, I allowed for the possibility that non-mainstream explanations are better, which does happen! I didn’t accuse Rubin of anything; I just said I was suspicious because he is often linked to Cure Dolly. That’s all.

First of all, in my defence, I wasn’t trying to prove anything, so I didn’t actually attempt to make an argument. What motivated my post was the suggestion that his explanation of は and が is unrivalled, my reasons being that I had heard a lot of Cure Dolly fans saying that the only cause of confusion is erroneous thinking and artificial comparisons – that’s not what my experience has shown me – and that I had never seen a more complete explanation of the differences than the one Noda Hisashi wrote (which I translated above), with perhaps one exception that essentially reuses many of the same ideas.

However, was my approach to thinking about Rubin lazy? Yes, it was. I’ve got this far without relying on Cure Dolly, and since I thought almost all of her ideas came from Rubin, I wasn’t inclined to investigate. I’m at a point where the main obstacles to improving my Japanese are a lack of Japanese-specific vocabulary (i.e. words, expressions and ideas that aren’t shared with Chinese) and a lack of knowledge of Classical Japanese (because almost all of the most complex N1 grammar points are written in Classical Japanese, not modern Japanese). As such, I reasoned that I should not spend time on resources that are very different from mainstream Japanese teaching (which is often the case with Cure Dolly) or from Japanese grammar as it is taught in Japan. I should have looked into Rubin’s work before saying that I’m dubious about it, but I don’t have the time, and I don’t feel it would be particularly productive: I’m not proficient enough to judge the quality of his translations, but I’m proficient enough for ‘Making Sense of Japanese’ to be unlikely to contribute much to my progress. I made a choice, it was unfair to Rubin, and I own up to that. However, I don’t think what I did was wrong insofar as I only advised caution in approaching his work while explicitly saying it was not necessarily bad, because that was the approach I took myself up to that point: I did not know his work, but I didn’t have a great impression of it because of what he’s often associated with – through no fault of his – and I felt that in any case, as a learner, I had to make choices because I don’t have the time for all the resources out there.

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He is not just a translator, you are forgetting to mention a lifetime of teaching Japanese at top US Universities…

  1. Instructor in Japanese, University of Chicago, 1967-70.

  2. Assistant Professor of Japanese, Harvard University,1970-75.

  3. Associate Professor of Japanese Literature, University of Washington, 1975-84.

  4. Professor of Japanese Literature, University of Washington, 1984-93.

  5. Edwin O. Reischauer Visiting Professor in Japanese Studies, Harvard Univ., 1990-91.

  6. Takashima Professor of Japanese Humanities, Harvard University, 1993-2006

  7. Visiting Professor, International Research Center for Japanese Studies, Kyoto, Japan, September 1995-August 1996 and June 2000-March 2001

  8. Emeritus Professor of Japanese Literature, Harvard University, 2006-present

Sure but it is still lots of fun to read. :slight_smile:

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With all due respect, my first Japanese textbook was written by two PhD holders who teach at France’s top institute of higher education for Asian languages (Inalco), and it contained kanji errors. I also found confusing statements like the idea that it is rare for conversations to be purely in one register, with no clear guidelines given for cases where it is possible for people to switch registers between sentences. I’m not saying these things aren’t facts of Japanese usage, but what’s the point of mentioning them if you can’t provide guidelines for learners beyond ‘less polite or more polite language gets mixed in if you’re talking to people you’re more or less close to’? I mean, OK, I just looked up an old edition of the course, so I now realise that some of my confusion was due to my own forgetfulness/rushing through the course to learn Japanese as quickly as I could, but the fact remains that their expertise didn’t exactly shine through in these respects. Perhaps more pertinently, I’m from one of France’s best (OK, not in the top 10, but it’s usually within the top 40, and it’s been as high as the top 20 in the last 10 years) prépas, and all my English teachers had to sit a national exam that only certifies them if they rank within a certain percentage nationwide. I think most of them have master’s degrees in English, if not a PhD. Two of the three teachers I had graduated from two of France’s very best schools for teaching and research: the Écoles Normales Supérieures. That didn’t stop them – well, one of them in particular, to be fair – from inventing rules that didn’t exist in English and rejecting perfectly respectable translations into English. Similarly, I’ve had teachers with qualifications like a PhD in language pedagogy and a supposed CEFR C1 level in English correct me for mistakes that don’t exist according to English grammar, or have difficulty expressing themselves on technical subjects like how engineers might contribute to society, even though I didn’t use any words that one wouldn’t easily find in a newspaper. As far as Japanese goes, you’ll notice that in some places in Tobira, the explanations of grammar points don’t line up with what mainstream monolingual Japanese dictionaries say, like the significance of なくてはいかない and なくてはならない. While all the authors seem to be native speakers, if you look at where the authors got their qualifications from, you’ll notice almost all of them hold master’s degrees in Japanese from top American universities. Only one or two of them hold PhDs or master’s degrees from Japanese universities. The correlation is obvious, even if I cannot prove causation.

Call me an elitist, but based on my experience so far, qualifications and positions held for language expertise do not necessarily count for much unless they are from the region where the language is natively spoken, and even more so if they are awarded by or held at a centre for excellence in that language. As such, Dr Rubin’s long-standing relationship with Harvard certainly impresses me, but the only bit of experience on that list that strongly supports his competence as far as I’m concerned is his stints at the research centre in Kyoto. I also consider earning the respect and admiration of native speakers, especially those attentive to their own usage, more credible than an average degree. I’m not saying Dr Rubin doesn’t have any of those, but that’s the reason I rarely take language teaching experience or language degrees seriously anymore: I’ve just seen too many counterexamples who prove that having a degree or even a long teaching career doesn’t mean you’re a competent user of a language. On the other hand, if you told me a non-native learner of a language became a professor in that language in a country where that language is natively spoken… you’d get my attention instantly.

PS: Just so you know, I’m just as harsh – or even more so – towards myself when it comes to languages. I’m rarely comfortable with calling myself ‘fluent’ in something unless I’m at least indistinguishable from a native when dealing with everyday topics and professional topics I should be familiar with. That is, if you read my writing or hear my voice without seeing my face, you shouldn’t be able to tell that I didn’t grow up in a country where that language is natively spoken. (By that standard, I should relinquish my claim to Chinese fluency soon because my lexicon has fallen into horrible disrepair. I need to find time for Chinese maintenance, but for now, it’s not urgent because I rarely need any Chinese knowledge in France.) The only differences I allow for are differences in mindset due to socio-cultural differences (but honestly, I should at least know what’s typical for a particular culture before stepping out of line or challenging it) and differences in terms of correctness (e.g. avoiding mistakes and slang that are common among native speakers, when appropriate). In other words, for me, fluency is ‘appearing to be an average native speaker’, and my usual goal is to speak and write like a highly educated native speaker. The only major domain in which I let myself off is everything related to highly specific household objects and growing up, because I’m not able to re-experience teaching adulthood with native speakers as my parents for every single language I learn. I’ll just have to deal with that as necessary when the time comes (e.g. if I meet the children of a friend, or if I date/marry a native speaker).

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I think that’s a contractionary statement.
What I like about Rubin is not the fact that he translated Murakami.
I agree that this isn’t necessarily a proof of the quality of his translations.
Harvard, the same. I am not so super impressed by some of the output of these universities.

However, what he does, and that makes a difference, is that he explains his approach to make sense of a sentence in Japanese without mystifying it and by doing so he is first of all giving you a method to use and also a possibility to value his method.
Not many people are so open about their approach to translation I think and the better the Japanese of people becomes usually the more they try to obscure their methods and knowledge in a “You will never be able to understand this like I can” attitude.

I feel he is serious about teaching.
And that’s what makes him trustable.

I think it is a good idea to be picky about what to learn from whom.
In the case of Rubin, he doesn’t claim to be a Kanji expert or that his Japanese is fluent or anything.
His strong point is, to demystify Japanese in a sense that he points out that the language is not ambiguous, vague or mysterious to a Westerner in any case like so many others (if not all) do.
He goes through each sentence in a very analytical way and thereby explaining constructions a non native Japanese speaker couldn’t make sense of otherwise or only by memorizing them and that leads to a certain vagueness in its usage giving room to many translation errors.
And that’s also what he writes about, translation errors btw.

Sorry, I don’t want to convince you of anything, but I find it necessary to defend that book against the Cure Dolly accusation.
It took me a while to watch a video of CD because I have a strong dislike for that avatar and the voice. But the reason I don’t want more of it is, that the explanation invents additional elements that do not clarify anything, eg. the sentence is like a train and you need a locomotion, the zero whatever etc.
That’s really the opposite of Rubin.

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Does this mean that my statement simplifies things too much? I seriously don’t understand this sentence. I’m not saying this to be snarky.

In the meantime though, let me clarify what that statement meant, in case it was unclear: I believe ‘Making Sense of Japanese’ is generally helpful for beginners and perhaps intermediate students, and I doubt that it will help me much with the challenges I’m facing now. That doesn’t mean I think it’s bad or useless for people in general. It’s the same thing with the Japanese lessons I’m doing in engineering school now: I think my teacher is a good teacher, and I can see that she’s dedicated. That doesn’t change the fact that her lessons aren’t helping me to progress much. They’re not bad; they just don’t cover many things I haven’t learnt yet, and they definitely don’t tackle what I find hard. My choice is entirely a matter of priorities: if I had been told about Rubin the way everyone has just done for me much earlier in my Japanese journey, I might have decided to get his book. As I am now, I most likely won’t. I have just under two years to become advanced enough to read technical documents about biology and engineering without any difficulty, and about 6-12 months (depending on whether I fly home for the test) to get an N1 certificate. Going back to basics most likely won’t help much.

Well, that’s very good, and it’s true that many people don’t do that.

Well, I always thought that the zero/null subject or whatever came from Rubin. That was what people said in defence of Cure Dolly. I’m glad to hear that Rubin doesn’t make things up just to get an explanation to work for him. I now have newfound respect for him, even if I’m still not going to pick his book up unless I have the time. Thank you for the clarification.

What I wanted to say with this is that “Making Sense of Japanese” is actually a book written to help you becoming proficient enough to judge the quality of any translation (I don’t think there are many).
That’s the main point of the book.
It is the essence of his experience as a translator and teacher, and also as an author.
The reason why people think that it is a book for beginners is, that he wraps up his very dense information in a humorous style as a palate cleaner and in order to make people read it without becoming tired (and that he doing this in a successful way is proved by comments that it is a fun and easy read).
The strategy is the same like from what Koichi does in WaniKani. To wrap up a lot of very dense information into something funny to keep people interested and not feeling overwhelmed. Personally I would not need that but I do understand that it takes a considerable depth of understanding of matters and a good will to be able to achieve that and that’s why I enjoy it. The fun is just the surface of something that would be too big for most otherwise. If you have ever tried to teach a kid something, you know…
So I don’t think it is an easy read at all.
It is one of the very rare books, where if you would start to highlight things,
you would have to highlight almost everything and therefor you don’t do it at all.
You can (and have to) read it several times and I will definitely do that.

But that doesn’t mean I am expecting you to read it, I just wanted to explain what I thought is a contradiction in this sentence, just in my opinion.

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Ah, ok, in that case, I see the contradiction. Interesting. Thanks!

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