[aDoIJG] K – M 💮 A Dictionary of Intermediate Japanese Grammar

[fallynleaf]

ことによる

Side note: I got distracted by the 氏 honorific in example (d) and went down a small rabbit hole trying to figure out the connotations, haha, because I recently finished a manga where a group of otaku all referred to each other with that honorific, so I wondered what are the normal circumstances in which people use it… Still not quite sure, to be honest!

Getting back on topic, S ことによる is usually preceded by a topic phrase or clause. S represents the cause of the result represented by the topic phrase or clause.

Our friends ためだ or からだ are also used to present a clause, but X は S ためだ and X は S からだ can be used for X は S ことによる only when X is a clause. When it’s a noun phrase, the others are unnatural. (Just a single Michelin question mark of wrongness, though, haha). I’m not sure I’ll be able to remember this one…

Once again, ことによる represents only a cause. からだ represents a reason as well as a cause, and ためだ represents a reason, a purpose, or a cause.

I had trouble finding an example of this exact structure in Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling.

ことはない

File this one under the category of “I have definitely seen this before but still forget about it.”

Vinf・nonpast + ことはない is used as an expression equivalent to Vinf・nonpast + 必要はない “there is no need to V” or Vinf・nonpast + 可能性はない “there is no possibility that ~”. So in some cases ことはない can be interpreted as either “no need” or “no possibility”, with the interpretation depending on the context or situation.

However, Vinf・nonpast + こと が/は ある does not mean “there is a need to” or “there is a possibility that ~”.

In Vinf・nonpast + ことはない, V must be affirmative. (I had a funny moment where I thought I’d found a negative one in TJPW, but it turned out to be just regular ことがある except negated… )

Vinf + はずはない is very similar in meaning to Vinf・nonpast + ことはない “there is no possibility that ~”. Vinf + はずはない is used when the speaker feels that an event is not impossible but that it is unlikely.

Here's an example from TJPW Summer Sun Princess on 2023.07.08, where Mizuki defeated Maki Itoh to retain the Princess of Princess Championship:

Hard mode: here’s the video.

伊藤「…負けました。まぁ、でももう言うことはないです。今日に関しては伊藤が負け。次やったらね、どうなるかは全然分かんないけど、こういう相手に出会えたのも良かったなと思います。なんか…分かんない。あれだけ黒歴史って言ってたけど、なんかやっててよかったかも。なんか、成仏できた気がします。ありがとうございました。

Itoh: “…I lost. But, well, there’s nothing left to say. Today, I lost. If there’s a next time, I don’t know what’ll happen, but I’m glad that I was able to meet an opponent like this. It’s… I don’t know. I referred to it as a dark history, but I’m glad that it happened. I feel like I’m able to rest in peace. Thank you very much.”

[Akashelia]

ましだ
I feel like I’ve never encountered it. Found it once in Detective Conan

名探偵コナン

[Thubanshee]

@fallynleaf

I got distracted by the 氏 honorific in example (d)

I was also wondering about that!! Not enough to google it though.

New week, new entries:

く

It’s surprising how the entries I know seem very simple and straightforward and the ones I don’t know seem very difficult. Is there a name for that? Some kind of cognitive bias?
Anyway this one felt very simple. Even though it’s a <w> haha

@Akashelia

ましだ

Also saw this for (what felt like) the first time a few weeks ago in the first chapter of 気になってる人が男じゃなかった (the manga the BBC is reading rn)! Have seen it several times since. Another cognitive bias?

までもない
don’t need to bother to…
Another very useful phrase. Especially the idiomatic phrases 〜のは言うまでもない (it goes without saying) and 言うまでもなく (needless to say).
It’s naming には及ばない as a related expression without saying anything about register, but the examples being very 敬語-y as well as me not recognising it makes me suspect it’s a bit 硬い.

Do you guys have a system for grammar points/phrases you want to remember? Anki cards, etc.? I’ve started marking the parts that I want to remember in purple, but that in itself is kind of useless as I’ll need to go through the book again at some point to collect all those purple highlights to do <something> with them.

[Akashelia]

@Thubanshee

Do you guys have a system for grammar points/phrases you want to remember?

Not really, but I have different grammar resources, Genki, Quartet, Bunpro, Satori Reader and the dictionary, so for me it’s just hearing the same grammar point explained differently at different times that reinforce them. And seeing them in the wild. And the discussions here

[helloorange]

Week 11 begins

---

Entries: く to または
Pages: 148 - 174

[fallynleaf]

く

This is grammar that feels absolutely basic and not intermediate to me…

The notes tell us that Adj(い)stem く is used in written Japanese (isn’t this fairly common in speaking as well, or am I totally misremembering?) to function as a continuative form. When the く form connects two predicates, the relationship between the two is either a cumulative relationship or a cause/reason relationship.

The compound adjective Vます たい cannot be used to express a cause/reason relationship, although other compound adjectives can be used that way.

く can’t carry its own tense. Its tense is determined by the tense of the main predicate.

Adj(い)stem くて can replace all the uses of Adj(い)stem く. The difference is that くて can be used in both spoken and written Japanese, but く is restricted to written Japanese. Also, く can be used as an adverb, but くて cannot. And くて can be used where く is not acceptable.

Not going to look for an example of this in Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling because I think it’d be a pain to sort through all of the く’s. I feel fairly certain that I’ve seen this there, though, despite this being supposedly only written grammar.

くらい

Pretty straightforward, for the most part! I had to look up which くらい was in the basic volume because I thought I’d already read about this one. This くらい expresses the degree of some state (the other くらい expresses approximate quantities or extents).

くらい can be replaced by ぐらい without a change in meaning. I’ve tried to learn when one is used over the other, but I’ve never quite managed to get a handle on it…

くらい with a negative predicate expresses a superlative (I looked this up. It means an adjective or adverb expressing the highest or a very high degree of a quality).

Note 4 is a bit confusingly worded: “くらい expresses the idea of ‘at least’. Xくらい in this use implies that the degree of a state is such that one cannot expect much more than X from that state.” Looking at the examples, they’re along the lines of “at least I can do ~” or “at least there’s ~”, and the X in Xくらい is kind of a bare minimum.

S のは X くらいのものだ expresses the idea that the speaker can’t think of anyone or anything else besides X that meets the description in S. Or in other words, X meets the description in S to the highest degree among those the speaker can think of. (This is another one that was a bit confusing, but once I looked at the example it made sense).

V1 くらいなら V2 方がましだ expresses the idea that one would rather V2 than V1. It literally means that if the speaker’s situation is such that they might V1, it would be better for them to V2.

くらい in key sentences A - C can be replaced by ほど without changing meaning. But くらい in key sentences D - F can’t be replaced by ほど. So, basic expressions of degree and the superlative meaning can be replaced, but not the “at least” as in bare minimum meaning, or the “of all the examples the speaker can think of, X matches to the highest degree” meaning, or the “one would rather V2 than V1” meaning.

Here's an example from TJPW's 2024.02.10 show, where Yuki Arai defended her International Princess Championship against Juria Nagano, only for Yuki Kamifuku to show up to challenge her next:

No video because this happened during the show.

上福「お疲れ様～。試合直後とは思えないくらいのこの美しいビジュアル、さすがだなって思うし。本当にいつも東京女子プロレスとアイドル業と、どっちもすごい頑張って。名古屋と東京どっちも行き来して忙しそうにしてるのに『忙しいでしょ？ 疲れてるでしょ？』って聞くと「いや～、そんなことないです」って言えるかんじ。もう全然鼻についてないよ。愛されてるところとかも全然ひがんでないんだけど、まぁ私も東京女子プロレスを盛り上げたい気持ちはあるのね。最近は色んなアジアの国に行って、よく分からない食べ物食べたりして頑張ってるんだけど、ここで東京女子プロレスを盛り上げたい。そしてビジュアルを大切にしている同士、お互いの顔面を崩し合って、そしてこのベルトを懸けて闘いあったらもっと盛り上がるんじゃないかなって思うんですけど～」

Kamifuku: “Great job! An unimaginably beautiful visual right after the match, as expected. You’re always working so hard both in TJPW and in the idol industry. It’s like how even though you seem so busy going back and forth between Nagoya and Tokyo, when people ask, ‘You must be busy, huh? Aren’t you tired?’ you’re like, ‘No, not really!’ I’m not at all sick and tired of it. I’m not at all jealous of how much they love you!! But, well, I also want to liven up TJPW. Lately I’ve been going to different countries in Asia and eating foods that I don’t really understand and working hard, but I’d like to make TJPW more exciting right here. And I thought, wouldn’t it get more exciting if we two people who care about looks break each other’s faces, and fight with that belt on the line?”

Here's a slightly different くらい in Kamiyu's backstage comments afterward (which I already shared parts of up-thread, apparently):

Hard mode: here’s the video (the part quoted below starts at 1:12). The first くらい is another example of the type from this entry; the second one is the amount type from ADoBJG.

上福「（場所は両国国技館です）両国国技館ですね。荒井ちゃんくらいだと名古屋…愛知県の半分くらいは持ってこれるんじゃないかなと思うので。私も藤沢市民をたくさん連れてこようと思ってるし。ホントは緊張するし、タイトルマッチとかもあんま率先していこうとは思わないけど。いま東京女子を盛り上げるためだったら緊張すること、やりたくないことをやろうっていうかんじです。埋まるといいね」

(The location is Ryogoku Kokugikan)

Kamifuku: “Ryogoku Kokugikan, yes. With someone like Arai-chan, I think she’ll bring in Nagoya, about half of… Aichi Prefecture. I’m also planning to bring a lot of Fujisawa residents along with me. I’m really nervous, and I don’t think about taking the initiative with title matches and such. But if it’s what it takes to liven up TJPW, I’m willing to do things that stress me out, things that I don’t want to do. I hope the place gets filled to the gills.”

I think this is basically the superlative type like in note 3 or possibly the note 5 type, though it’s not a perfect match for either structure. But I think she’s using Yuki Arai (who is a popular idol in her non-wrestling job, for context. She’s objectively the most famous person on their roster) as an example of someone in TJPW whom Kamiyu thinks is the biggest draw (someone who’d be capable of getting half of Aichi Prefecture to come see her wrestle, which is not a feat Kamiyu thinks anyone else would be able to achieve to that extent).

I actually had a bit of trouble with that one when I was translating it initially, so this entry helped me understand a bit better what was going on there!

[pm215]

I think the rationale for this use of く being intermediate is that the basic grammar version is くて. The verb form equivalent, using just the masu stem to link two clauses, is also in this dictionary under “Vmasu”.

The entry for まい says that じゃあるまい isn’t common, which I would agree with except that there’s a use of it that bunpro etc give its own grammar entry: じゃあるまいし, as in the classic 子供じゃあるまいし “you’re not a kid [so stop behaving like one]”.

[Thubanshee]

@fallynleaf

I feel fairly certain that I’ve seen this there, though, despite this being supposedly only written grammar.

Yeah that part got me too. I thought that maybe I’ve been confusing it with くて or maybe I’ve read it so many times that it feels natural or sth, but now you’re experiencing the same doubts, so maybe it’s the book that’s wrong, not us haha

[fallynleaf]

くせに

くせに is used only when the main clause and the subordinate clause share the same subject. It is not used when the subject is the first person. In conversation, main clauses often drop (not a fan of example (4) here…).

のに is similar to くせに, but it doesn’t express the speaker’s emotion as strongly as くせに, so it’s not suitable in contexts like where the speaker swears at the hearer. Also, the restrictions mentioned above don’t apply to のに.

にもかかわらず expresses an idea similar to くせに and のに, but にもかかわらず is a highly formal and bookish expression and it expresses no emotion. So it can’t be used in highly emotive situations (and the formation rules are different from くせに).

I found an example from a Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling comment that I think I've already shared part of, but I had to share it again, because guess what? It breaks the rule in note 2! This is from after Yuki Kamifuku and Mahiro Kiryu lost their match in the tag tournament (and got eliminated) on 2024.01.20:

Hard mode: here’s the video (I went ahead and included the full comments because they’re very funny).

上福「オマエ、先週体調不良で休んでる代わりになんかてっきり真弥ちゃんとしてるから遠くまで行って無酸素トレーニングとかチョーやってると思ったんだけど」

Kamifuku: “You know, while I was out last week, I thought ‘surely since Mahiro-chan’s got it together, she’ll be off somewhere doing buttloads of anaerobic training right about now.”

桐生「ごめんなさい！とくに無酸素…なんですか？」

Kiryu: “Sorry! I didn’t particularly do any anaerobic… what was it?”

上福「酸素トレーニング」

Kamifuku: “Hard training.”

桐生「トレーニングは…」

Kiryu: “Training…”

上福「してなかったのか。もうどうするの、だってさ、ゆきもゆきなんだけど、どうする？こんだけ歴ばっかくってさ、うちらの友情期間ばっか延びてさ、一回気合入れ直そうと前回のベルトで負けて、Wi-Fiに。でも一回解散だーとか言ったくせに、早々にやっててさ、結果も残してない。どうしたら良いと思う！？」

Kamifuku: “You didn’t? What are we going to do now—It’s my fault, too, but what are we going to do? For all this time we’ve just been kept going by the mere fact we’ve been doing it for a long time, so we just keep prolonging our friendship, and we tried to get fired up for a fresh start, but then we lost our chance at the belts, to Wi-Fi. But even though I said once that we were breaking up, we’re back at it again so soon, and still no results. What should we do?!”

桐生「どうしたらいいんですかね！？なんか、どうしよう…」

Kiryu: “What should we do?! What should we do…”

上福「でもウチらはなんちゃって友達みたいなのやってると思うんだよ、正直。30歳の時に一緒にそば食べに行こうっつったのに、行ってない！」

Kamifuku: “I think you’re being kind of a fake friend, honestly. You said we’d go out and eat soba together when we’re 30, but we still haven’t gone!”

桐生「ヤバイですね」

Kiryu: “That’s no good.”

上福「私も私だけど、オマエも口だけなんだよいつも、テメーはよ」

Kamifuku: “It’s on me, too, but you’re all talk.”

桐生「たしかに、私一回もそば行きましょうとか言ってない！」

Kiryu: “It’s true, I never once asked you to go out for soba!”

上福「オマエから誘われたことねえからな！」

Kamifuku: “You’ve never invited me!”

桐生「ごめん！ ごめんなさい」

Kiryu: “Sorry! I’m sorry.”

上福「オメーはゆきを誘うとこから始めろよ」

Kamifuku: “You should start by asking me out!”

桐生「じゃあ、そば打つはちょっとハードル高かった、食べ行こう」

Kiryu: “Well, making soba was too big of an obstacle. Let’s go eat.”

上福「ああいいよ、バーミヤンでもいいから誘え」

Kamifuku: “Ah, it’s okay. You can take me to Bamiyan or something.”

(There’s some ambiguity in the sentence without prior context, but Kamiyu herself is definitely the one who said “解散”, not Mahiro or anyone else. I translated that comment last year, haha.)

までもない

The notes point out that the adverbial form までもなく is also frequently used.

必要はない is similar to までもない in meaning, but lacks the sense of going as far as to do something or bothering to do something. It also can be preceded by a noun.

ほどのこともない and には及ばない (not sure I’ve learned either of these before) are very similar to までもない except には及ばない is usually not used in the adverbial form. It can be preceded by a noun.

のは言うまでもない “it goes without saying that ~” and 言うまでもなく “needless to say” are idiomatic phrases and have no substitute phrases.

I found an example in TJPW! This was from the 2023.01.29 show where Kyoraku Kyomei (Hyper Misao and Shoko Nakajima) secured themselves a spot in the tag tournament finals against One To Million (Maki Itoh and Miyu Yamashita):

No video because this interaction happened in the ring:

中島「ひとつ言いたいことがミサヲに。去年、私はベルトを落としましたが、同じように負けなかったのは隣にスーパーヒーローがいたからだと私は思ってます。頼りにしてるよ」

Nakajima: “I have one thing I want to say to you. I lost my belt last year, but I think the reason I didn’t lose like that time was because I had a superhero by my side. I’m counting on you.”

ミサヲ「言うまでもなく、私があなたのことを誰よりも信頼してるし、あなたの強さを誰よりも信じてる。我々享楽共鳴なら絶対トーナメント優勝できると思う。ありがとう。今日勝てたのも、あなたが隣にいてくれたおかげ！」

Misao: “Needless to say, I trust you more than anyone, and believe in your strength more than anyone. I think that we, Kyoraku Kyomei, can definitely win this tournament. Thank you. I was able to win today thanks to being at your side!”

Please let them win the belts soon

まい

According to this book, まい is basically a written form. It is usually used in formal writing. I can’t recall having seen it much, so that tracks.

The notes also say that for group 2 verbs, Vます is occasionally used instead of Vinf・nonpast. For irregular verbs, すまい and こまい are sometimes used instead of するまい and くるまい.

Vinf・nonpast まい expresses the speaker’s negative volition. Like Vvol, まい does not have a past form. The past tense is expressed by other verbs.

The volition of someone other than the speaker can be expressed by まい. The note points out that と思う “think that” is used to express the volition of someone other than the speaker, so the example given expresses the speaker’s conjecture rather than the other person’s volition.

Vinf・nonpast まいとする expresses the idea of “try not to V”. When this structure is used in a subordinate clause, する is often omitted. (The example here, (9), was kind of funny to me because I’ve read many similar statements when translating pro wrestling, but they all use entirely different grammar structures haha).

Vvol か Vinf・nonpast まいか expresses the idea of “whether (I) will V or not”.

When まい expresses the speaker’s conjecture, its meaning is similar to ないだろう. But まい is more formal.

Because まい is seldom used in conversational Japanese, じゃ (the contracted form of では) あるまい rarely occurs.

I’m not going to search for this in TJPW because I think the vast majority of what would come up for “まい” would not be this structure.

[Thubanshee]

まさか

It says here that in all cases except for when it’s used as an exclamation, まさか can be replaced by よもや. I’m very familiar with まさか, but I’ve never once heard よもや before. Does someone have any insights into that? Maybe it’s a literary expression again…

または

現金(げんきん)、または小切手(こぎって)でお払(はら)い下(くだ)さい。

Please pay either in chash or by check.

Before reading the translation, I thought this meant to pay in cash or postage stamps, which could be used to pay for certain things around here ages ago, but definitely not anywhere this side of the turn of the millenium. And I thought, I know this book is old, and I know Japan likes to use outdated methods of carrying out bureaucracy, but that goes a bit far…

…and then I realised it’s just the word used for cheque. Still super outdated, but not quite as shocking. Honestly a little disappointed.

[Akashelia]

@Thubanshee

I’m very familiar with まさか, but I’ve never once heard よもや before. Does someone have any insights into that? Maybe it’s a literary expression again…

Funny you asked, I just had it yesterday in the VN I read:

なんだってこんな不便な場所に神社を建てたのだろうか。

よもや、いずれ来たる地球温暖化に伴う海面上昇に備えているとでも言うのか

And I can find it in manga too, not often, but it happens よもや

[Thubanshee]

Thanks for looking that up. In the last one, it even occurs together with まい!!

However, all of those examples (except the third one, can’t really get a read on that) feel a little more …fancy? than the casual/spoken contexts I’ve encountered まさか in. Might be coincidence, might be that よもや is actually a little more formal. Learned something new either way : )

[pm215]

@Thubanshee

However, all of those examples (except the third one, can’t really get a read on that) feel a little more …fancy?

Yeah, そなた, 来たる, できまい – definitely a bit more formal or old fashioned. Daijisen has a bit comparing the two which says

「よもや」は「まさか」より古風な言い方で、改まった感じの語。

[Akashelia]

I should mention that in my VN, the MC is a young guy, having a border-line ecchi humor, and in this scene talking to himself, so it can also be used by the youth!

[Thubanshee]

Thank you all for your answers!

[helloorange]

Week 12 begins

---

Entries: 目 to もの(だ)
Pages: 174 - 192

_{Sorry, I forgot about this section! I’ve added week 12 to this thread’s schedule table. A new thread starts next week.}

[fallynleaf]

Got unexpectedly busy, so I might be a little behind for a bit .

まさか

This was one of those words where when I initially learned it, I suddenly realized I’d heard it in anime many times before, haha.

The adverb まさか is used to express the speaker’s strong belief that an action or a state is not expected to become or have become a reality. It’s usually an action or state that is not desirable for the speaker, but not always.

The final predicate is either a thinking verb, a conjecture expression だろう, or an expectation expression はず, (わけにはいく)まい, and all take a negative form.

It can also be used by itself as an exclamation meaning “incredible!” or “impossible!”

There’s a set phrase まさかの時 meaning “the time of need”.

よもや (which I also can’t remember ever having seen before) can express the same idea as まさか, but it can’t be used as an exclamation.

Here's an example from the last Tokyo Joshi Pro Wrestling translation I finished, which was a press conference from 2024.03.18, leading up to Grand Princess at Ryogoku Kokugikan on 3.31:

Here’s the video (the part quoted below is near-ish to the start), and here’s the official transcript.

鈴芽「でじもんはでじもんになる前、両国国技館の第1試合で組んで闘っていたんですけど、その頃も息ピッタリではあったけど、まさかこんな大舞台で私たちがタイトルマッチに挑戦することになるとは思ってもみなかったんです。でも有栖もさっき言ってた通り、悔しい思いをたくさんしてきて、トーナメント優勝という大きな結果を2人で残すことができて、私たちはその思いもよらなかった大舞台に今は自信を持って向かうことができています。私はずっと東京女子プロレスを創り上げる一員になりたいと言い続けていて、このベルトを獲ることがその最前線に立つことだと思っているので、両国国技館で絶対にこのベルトを獲りたいと思います」

Suzume: “Before Daisy Monkey became Daisy Monkey, we teamed up and fought in the opening match at Ryogoku Kokugikan, and even then we were perfectly in sync, but I never thought that we’d challenge for the titles on such a large stage. But as Arisu said earlier, we’ve had a lot of frustrating experiences, and in winning the tournament, we were able to achieve amazing results together, and we are now confident as we head toward that grand stage that we never thought we’d reach. I have always said that I wanted to be one of the people building up TJPW, and I think winning those belts would put us at the forefront of that, so we are absolutely going to take those titles at Ryogoku Kokugikan.”

(No よもや examples that I could find in TJPW.)

ましだ

I’m not sure I was familiar with this one before reading this entry?

まし is an adj(な) that’s used to indicate that something/someone or a situation is better than something/someone else or another situation even though it/they are not satisfactory. ましだ is used exactly like any other adj(な).

ましだ in all the examples can be replaced by いい, but the former always implies that something or someone is not satisfactory but better, whereas the latter simply means that someone or something is better.

Couldn’t find any ましだs or ましなs in TJPW.

[nemurineko]

@fallynleaf

まし is an adj(な) that’s used to indicate that something/someone or a situation is better than something/someone else or another situation even though it/they are not satisfactory.

Here’s an example of ましだ in the book コンビニ人間
(p 74 of the paperback, last column)：

「警察沙汰にならなかっただけマシだと思った。」

where the main character is reacting to the news that

new employee Shiraha has been fired from the convenience store for behaving in a creepy and stalkerish way towards some of the female customers.

i.e., it wasn’t good, but it could have been much worse.

[Akashelia]

みせる
Interesting one, I feel like it’s the first time I hear about it and I don’t remember seeing in the wild. But I did, からかい上手の高木さん has the best example of that:

からかい上手の高木さん

And then, thanks to this awesome phenomenon of noticing something more after you become aware of it, it showed up in my VN too

[rodan]

@fallynleaf

まさか

まさか、もうまさかか？

I remember when I picked up the Intermediate Dictionary to consider joining the club back at the start (and then didn’t do that), the bookmark from picking through it occasionally over the years was at まさか.
I guess I should probably join in now, then! Although I don’t know what if anything I’ll have to say (other than looking the items up in your translations remains a very cool use of both). My impression from when I picked up the dictionary again was that now I’ll probably find it mainly boring – in a gratifying way, since I don’t remember the Basic Dictionary ever being that to me at the time.