Acceptable Readings of 雰囲気

I’m surprised to see someone hasn’t made a fuss about this already. I think that the lack of ふいんき as a correct alternative reading is at best an oversight, and at worst encouraging WaniKani users to use the unnatural and dispreferred variant of a word.

Firstly, the well-accredited Japanese monolingual dictionary (and the basis for many Japanese-English dictionaries), Digital Daisen approaches this variation. デジタル大辞泉 (Digital Daijisen): In their additional information section, cites that ふいんき is an increasingly common variant of the word. Additonally, the only dictionary I found that does not cite the Daijisen, Jisho.org, again, cites ふいんき within their section “Other forms.”

Anecdotally, I live in Japan and have only ever heard it as ふいんき, even among the older generations. To compare this to an English example, this is in the same ranks as the rule “Don`t end your sentences with a preposition”. That is, the only people who stand by the rule that 雰囲気 can only be correctly pronounced ふんいき believe that for a word to be correct it must be true to its etymology, which is unequivocally false. That is why we put more than just cups in a cupboard, and do our business in the ‘powder’ room. Any reading or usage of a word is correct insofar as it is used by native speakers.

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@Mods what do you think?

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Thanks for the tag! The content team will review.

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“Any reading or usage of a word is correct insofar as it is used by native speakers”

wow i never knew i had so much power as a native english speaker

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Weeeell…

Some time ago it came up in a video from the Speak Japanese Naturally channel on YT. It’s been a while, can’t recall which clip it was in, however:
The lady acknowledged it’s a tricky one - when she was a child she used to pronounce it ふいんき but growing up (and seeing the kanji) she understood this was wrong and now only uses ふんいき even though it’s more difficult.
(I learned it on WK, and doesn’t seem at all difficult or awkard… no more so than other words anyway :thinking: )

Seeing this thread I’ve now asked a Japanese colleague at work and she as well uses ふんいき :man_shrugging:

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Interesting. When I consulted my Japanese coworker he said that ふいんき is the preferred reading.

However, I don’t expect either your or my Japanese coworkers to be familiar with the rate of each pronunciation nation-wide. It could also be that it’s dialectal. In any case, I can say with a high degree of certainty that neither reading is wrong, as your video would suggest. It may seem counterintuitive to disagree with a native speaker (your video lady, in this case). But, just as we are in English, native speakers are often wrong in matters of analysis in regard to their own language, including but not limited to dialectal differences (you can easily imagine someone saying hoagie is wrong, it’s called a sub). Native speakers of a given language are really just reliable for their gut feeling, analysis be damned.

To your point about kanji, see mine about etymological confoundation.

Objectively, a word-medial ん is quite difficult to say, even for native speakers. This is because it has to be distinct from the n-row + vowel variant. In this case, if you are saying ふんいき and ふにき exactly the same, you’d be incorrect, as one is four morae and the other is three. Further, 原因(げんいん)is not pronounced げにん, and instead is often pronounced without the word-medial ん at all (like geein).

Lastly, and more of just a fun fact. A similar process occurred with 新しい and 新たな. Have you ever wondered why the two kanji have different but incredibly similar readings? They were both at one point pronounced as 新た, but Japanese speakers deemed it too difficult to say あらたしい, and flipped the syllables (just like in fuinki). And yes, along the way, people then probably also said that あたらしい is wrong, but now it’s the standard.

Source: a linguistics degree idk

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I respectfully disagree. Natives are more likely to make mistakes in their own language, I’ve found, because they’re more likely to not bother learning their language properly by thinking, “I’m native in it, I don’t need to learn it.”

Just as English natives making a mess of English all over social media… “Should of …”, “There pets were…”, “Can’t bare to think about it…”, “What palate did you use for this drawing?”

I’m gonna be brutally honest: no, just because natives use something, it doesn’t mean it’s correct, it just means they don’t know :melting_face:

As for 雰囲気… I’ll have to research what the actual correct reading is… If the variation is accepted widely, then I’ll think about it!

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What you’re describing are spelling errors, which are common among native speakers because of homonyms. But writing is not language, as the human race has had language for far longer than it has writing.

When it comes to speaking, native use means it’s fine. This is why dictionaries are inherently playing catch-up, not setting the standard.

For clarity: native speakers of course make performance errors… like saying “bunny phone” instead of “funny bone”, I’m obviously referring to repeated and instinctual use. This is why nucular is now a variant pronunciation of nuclear. These types of small changes over time is why languages change, and why Old English is not comprehensible to a native English speaker, nor will English 1500 years from now.

If you’re interested in further info, I would research the difference between prescriptivism and descriptivism.

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They’re not spelling errors. They really think that’s how the words are written :face_exhaling:
And it still doesn’t explain “Should of…” :face_with_spiral_eyes:

And yeah, language changes, but not 374836272 times a month like it currently does on social media and the wider internet…

Anyways, this is just a personal thought I have on such cases :sweat_smile:

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This. Just because a mistake is widespread, doesn’t make it right.
And… I for one have no qualms over correcting my acquaintances in my own mother-tongue :blush: Younger ones are more liable to get them wrong, it seems to me :man_shrugging: Or maybe I’m just getting old and outdated :rofl:

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I think “should of” came from “should’ve” as I often use the latter.

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It won’t be wrong if it isn’t standardized. But Kana forms are indeed written, in IME, Furigana, or even main text. Pronunciation may have variations and depart slightly from Kana written standards.

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I’m 24 and I know my peers… They just can’t be bothered :sob:

It’s sad how I can see that… :smiling_face_with_tear:

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Lots of general comments that feels like nitpicking of one sentence from OP and not a lot of discussion about the actual proposed addition.

It’s true language changes over time and what’s widely used has a tendency to become correct.

In 雰囲気s case it’s still a quarter of the population that uses that pronunciation at all (let alone exclusively)

And it isn’t 変換able on some IMEs. My phone has it, but my computer didn’t.

Seeing as that’s the case, I think the statement that it’s an oversight at minimum to be a bit exaggerated. At the same time, however, I actually think it would be a fine decision to add it as a hidden answer. Seeing as it’s the way a quarter of the population says the word (even more among young people and that’s just self reported. Actual numbers are probably a bit higher) and it’s possible to use it with your IME it does seem passable. I would just have one of the pop-ups for it or something.

EDIT: Just to clarify my reasoning for being a hidden answer: I as a learning platform I still think they should with the safest choice. Seeing as the most common, 100% reliable for IMEs, and “correct” reading is all ふんいき I think this should be given full focus hands down.

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Hmmm I don’t think WK has hidden answers for readings, just for meanings?

I don’t see any problem with it being added as an alternative reading… provided there’s an explanation for it and a “warning” (maybe that’s too harsh of a word?). They do have additional details for secondary readings of other vocab.

But now I’m curious:
Where does that graph come from, something online?
Could be a fun (and potentially useful) tool to use, if it provides the same info for more vocab.

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NHK does a lot of these research dives for pronunciation differences

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That’s just the descriptivist vs prescriptivist debate. Unfortunately for you, prescriptivists always end up losing over a long enough period of time…

But of course it does! That’s what being a living language is about. Look at the evolution of English over the past few centuries. If anything the internet probably causes some amount of standardization of slang, when I was a kid you had unique slang from town to town. Now you can hear kids around the world use the same Twitch and TikTok lingo. No cap.

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I should have said it better: the internet facilitates mistakes to become so widespread, people start thinking that’s the correct way.

New lingo is fine (although I personally can’t stand all the latest slang, and I stopped trying to keep up in 2018), but people learning the wrong way and perpetuating the wrong way is not fine :smiling_face_with_tear: (in my opinion).

Anyways. The world goes on, I guess :rofl:

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I’ve tried to do some (wonky) research. I’ve asked some friends in Japan, and they said ふいんき is wrong, but it is common.

Then on the internet, I looked over some forums, and the general consensus is that ふいんき is wrong, just common.

A little quote from one of the forums:

大修館書店 (2011) 『明鏡国語辞典(めいきょうこくごじてん)』の「ふんいき」の項目(こうもく)には、「『ふいんき』は誤り」と書かれています。

This article in Japanese agrees it’s pretty much a pronunciation struggle:

For me this seems… Hmmm. Well. Personally I’d see this as a mistake. My vote would be to not add it on WK. But obviously if the majority want it, then oh well :woman_shrugging:t2:

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This is a word I picked up while living in Osaka many years ago. I always heard it as ふいんき and was suprised when I found out that technically it was ふんいき. In my experience ふいんき is the more common pronunciation, for whatever that’s worth. Not saying that means it’s “correct”, but it’s certainly common. For me ふんいき is too hard to say.

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