涼宮ハルヒの憂鬱: Week 3 Discussion

Yes? But most of the time context is enough, when it isn’t I can ask a native speaker, and should that fail too, I have books and the Internet. The order of asking a native and checking online may be reversed depending on the situation.
I’ve never been in a situation where everything failed, so I just never had a chance to ask on the forum.
I thought I’d start mentioning the things I look up, buuuuut I usually forget.

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I’m glad it’s useful to someone. :sweat_smile:

Grammatical tangent

Actually, -(e)do (mo) (-e base + particle to (mo) with a sound change, just like ba is really wa with a sound change) forms are easy to remember, since we have a living remnant in the modern language: けれど. It’s the old concessive form of adjectives: 青し “it is blue” => 青けれど “though it is blue”.

Nowadays, -(e)do has been superseded by -(I)te mo but AFAIK in the classical language it had a more specific meaning “even though (something is)” and was contrasted with to (mo) “even if (something were)”, which still exists in modern Japanese, as I’m sure you know. (Classical to mo followed the conclusive form of verbs and the gerund of adjectives. 迷えど “even though I am lost” vs 迷うとも “even if I were lost”. EDIT: Or I guess with proper old orthography it’d be 迷へど and 迷ふとも.)

I think the case of modern to mo is interesting; technically, it has lost its hypothetical flavour, same as -(I)te mo, but concretely I only seem to see it with the tentative (volitional form), so that it indirectly regains a subjunctive meaning.

You should! I’d feel less alone in posting my long lists. :no_mouth:

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:exploding_head:

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I think you should! I bet @Leebo would be interested, and I’d take a peek every now and then. : D

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I don’t think I’ve ever talked with him directly, so I rather doubt that. :stuck_out_tongue:

Anyway, that was just tongue-in-cheek; I’m pretty sure most everyone agrees that “advanced” grammar is usually just boring single-use constructions or otherwise asinine exceptions…

There are probably more useful and participative threads one could make. For example, a thread about comparative grammar, where people could post things that they think are similar/contrasting with their own language. That could be be interesting, to me… but I doubt it’d be very popular. :sweat_smile:

Well, I was being serious. Leebo practically lives in the Japanese Grammar section and answers questions…
And didn’t you have a looooong discussion with Sean about some grammar point one night?

Your new (second) idea would probably be very popular - I’ve seen mini-conversations on that topic before.

We’ve discussed a few things, but a lot of it is over my head to be honest.

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That’s… kind of true, I guess… but nah, just too lazy. :sweat:

More seriously… It’s fun to hang around, read a bit with you all, reflect on some real examples of usage, and maybe share a bit of what I know with whoever wants to listen. Yes, talking with @seanblue about ある・する support was nice—it’s something I think more people should be aware of. But, at the end of the day, how should I put this… I’m long past the stage of innocence where I feel the need to tell everyone about my every latest Japanese-language epiphany. :sweat_smile:

That was the whole point of my original remark. Reading about Haruhi being so earnest in her pursuits, it brought to my mind the many devout Japanese learners of these forums (and elsewhere). I see a lot of people use SRS, make very comprehensive notes, keep diaries, etc. and be generally just so excited about Japanese, all of which I find impressive… but as I was telling @Naphthalene that other time, I don’t do any of that. And I certainly don’t see myself keeping a thread of my various “discoveries”, when I can’t even be bothered to sort the many PDFs of papers I’ve read and just throw all of them in a random bibliography folder…

Anyway, it’s just that I found the comparison funny. But thanks for your concern! Who knows, maybe one day…

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Your post made me smile.

While I don’t take many notes (but I do get excited)… anyway, I think it’s funny how we’re approaching this almost from opposite sides - I’m too lazy to read all those grammar explanation papers! XD

Either way, I’m glad you’ve decided to join us here.

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It’s nice to be excited about stuff you learn… it’s a shame that feeling doesn’t last forever. :stuck_out_tongue: (This discussion reminds me that I should really spend more time on my research rather than on Japanese / linguistics papers…) Anyway, it’s certainly not something I find disagreeable in the character of Haruhi!

Reminiscence...

I don’t recall specifically what game/manga/anime/whatever Japanese pop culture thing made me excited to study Japanese back then… but I do remember one of my first contacts with classical Japanese, again, through popular culture! That was a few years ago, while watching an anime film, The Garden of Words, which uses a pair of poems from the Man’yôshû as its theme. 鳴る神の少し響みてさし曇り雨も降らぬか君を留めむ / 鳴る神の少し響みて降らずとも我は留まらむ妹し留めば I really wanted to know how it worked to produce the meaning that was ascribed to it… Few years forward, all that excitement got buried somewhere in a giant pile of papers, and I even all but forgot about that poem until now, only to re-read it and realise I barely understand… where did things go wrong? /o\

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I have to say, I really wasn’t expecting the “授業中だ” near the end :laughing:Totally seems like something Haruhi would do given what we know so far though. Also, something more general I’ve noticed is that Kyon really likes his comparisons when narrating, even if some of them seem like a bit of a stretch

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Yesss, that’s a good scene.

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I’m embarassingly late again and I have questions.

Summary

「どうせロクでもないことでしょ」
Third sentence. I don’t know what ロク is supposed to mean here so I’m not getting the meaning of the sentence.

「それはない」と思う。
He is saying this out loud even if it says と思う… right?

「一人くらいまともに付き合おうとか思う奴やつがいなかったのか」
Okay I’ve had a lot of trouble with this sentence for some reason. Wasn’t sure about the meaning of まともに and I felt like I had all parts but the grammar was scaping me.
After mulling over it for a bit I think it might mean something like “Wasn’t there even one guy you honestly considered going out with?”. But like… who would ask such a direct question to what is basically a stranger?
Sorry if this was mentioned before but I haven’t read the blurred/hidden bits of the thread to avoid spoilers.

くだらない男しかこの世に存在しないのかどうなのかってことよ
I think I more or less get the idea but grammar-wise I get lost a the end there, not sure how to parse that.

I didn’t even read that much in this session but it is so mentally draining, I’m ded. I’ll probably continue reading later if I’m to ever catch up. I do want to say that I feel like I’m learning/it’s getting easier but maybe it’s just because there weren’t many long sentences in this part.

Summary

It has the meaning of “being worthy” if I remember the context. So: It’s not worth it anyway.

Hm, I don’t remember unless if I reread, it can go both ways. [“No” I thought in my mind] vs [“No”, at least that’s what I think]. Will need to depend on context here.

Your translation is correct.
一人くらい = even one person
まともに付き合おうとか思う = think about genuinely (in an honest way) going out with

“かどうなのか” is equivalent to “かどうか” = whether or not
And the rest (ってことよ) is just quoting the previous statement.

存在しないのかどうなのか = whether or not there exists…
ってことよ = (could be translated to anything really depending on context, but one example) … is what I was saying

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Aye. Also, it’s an expression.

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Hey, don’t beat yourself up about it. Glad you’re still with us :blush:

I believe this is just a piece of quirky writing. This is in answer to Haruhi questioning if 谷口 is a stalker, and a bit of a joke at his expense.

So you are correct, it is meant to indicate him saying “no way”, but internally indicating uncertainty (likely as a joke):
“He’s not a stalker”… I think.

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More questions:

Summary

見上げると朝倉涼子の作り物でもこうはいかない笑顔が俺に向けられていた。
Not sure what the bolded part is supposed to mean.

輪を構成する女どもが残らずこちらを注目していたことが俺の気分をさらにツーランクほどダウンさせる。
I don’t know what the deal is with the woman rings. Is that an expression or just キョン?

頭が痛いのは机の角にぶつけただけではなさそうだ。
I just liked this sentence

まさか、俺にも一枚噛 《か》めと言うんじゃないだろうな。
I think I get the meaning but I’m confused about bolded part.

And I’m finally done with this.
The reading for each week seems sooo long. I think it is not so much that is takes a lot of time, but that it takes a lot of effort. So I have to take a lot of breaks while reading so I don’t burn out.
I remember getting this “reading fatigue” back in the day with English so I know the only way to get through it is to keep reading until it gets better :skull_and_crossbones:

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For those of us playing at home, where in the passage are these sentences?

I’m using an ebook and the web version of the ebookjapan reader doesn’t seem to even have percentages so I don’t know how to tell, sorry :frowning_face: (at least they are in order?)

I believe it means, like, a smile that couldn’t be artificial. Like, a manufactured thing couldn’t be this way.
Comment to those who know the story already: Hahahahahahaha

The continued references to circles of girls is just a reference to how school girls will make these big circular groups to chat in.

:+1: イエス!

Take a bite out of it!
Yeah it’s an expression

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