土 and 地 -- aren't they both just dirt? any nuance here?

I’m always hesitant to add synonyms on WK, worrying that maybe I’m missing a nuance captured by the different words but without seeing the kanji used in context it’s hard to tell sometimes.

I often answer 地 as dirt, which isn’t a synonym, but based on the synonyms it does have (ground and land) it seems like it should be a valid option. Do you use these two kanji significantly differently or should I just add dirt as a synonym and move on with my life

土 - soil (ground, land, dirt)
地 - earth (ground, land)

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Disclaimer: what I’m about to say is mostly drawn from Chinese (native speaker – it was my secondary language growing up), but most of the kanji knowledge I have from Chinese has carried over nicely to Japanese so far (and if it’s any comfort, I’ve been studying Japanese for 4.5 years now and have an N1).

I don’t see these kanji that often in Japanese, but from what I know:

  • 土 is soil i.e. earth as a material or substance, and that can be extended to mean ‘ground’ or ‘land’ because 土 is what usually covers those things
  • 地 is earth as an overarching concept, place, layer and so on. It’s slightly more abstract and can be extended to refer to the base or fundamental/lowest layer of something, like someone’s true nature

Funnily enough, ‘dirt’ is the one synonym I probably wouldn’t use to translate or explain 地. ‘Dirt’ is too physical, and more importantly too close to the material the earth is made up of, as opposed to simply referring to some monolithic, typically expansive thing.

You’re right that they’re closely related – heck, there’s even a 土 in 地 (on the left) – but they’re definitely not the same, and typically aren’t interchangeable. Still, honestly, you’ll eventually learn vocabulary and expressions in which one or the other is used, so I guess it’s not that bad if you mix them up – usage will eventually help you differentiate the two.

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Cool that’s exactly what I was looking to clarify. Because in english we sometimes use earth as a synonym for dirt, and the synonym given here of “ground” makes me think dirt also works, but that’s just because of the total lack of context. But if 土 is the material and 地 is more location then it makes sense to keep them apart and not use dirt. Thanks!

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Just saying, you usually mark the person who replied as the solution. :eyes:

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Wait. What?!

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Yeah, perhaps Jonapedia can expand on that a bit, but even just as solo words 土 and 地 are both in the top 2500 for vocab frequency in fiction on jpdb.

That’s before getting into the frequency of words that merely include those kanji as a part.

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I’m also not entirely sure that 土 is more concrete and 地 is more abstract given that 地震 sounds kinda more conrete to me than 浄土仏教

When it comes to their usage in compounds, I think it’s fair to say that they both exist on a spectrum from concrete to abstract, but the borders are fuzzy rather than being solid points, and they cover different parts of the spectrum at different intensities.

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Guess I should explain myself. First of all, yes, I expect them to be very common, and they’re ridiculously common in Chinese, so they probably should be in Japanese as well, simply because the concepts they cover are very common in most languages and everyday life. However, maybe because

  • I mostly watch anime
  • I mostly read articles on language use or bit of the news

I just… don’t really encounter these kanji that much somehow? Perhaps more importantly – and this is what I really meant – I can’t think of many words I’ve seen that use either of these kanji. You can probably show me a ton of words containing them and I’ll understand them all, but those that I’m actively aware of in Japanese? I can probably count them on one hand. They’re very closely linked to common, concrete, everyday concepts, but in my experience, the moment you go into more advanced language use, the moment you’re in the wrong domain, all unrelated common words vanish. For example, I consciously know the word “lampe” in French (and it obviously means ‘lamp’ if you speak English), but I have probably used or heard it 50 times at most in my five years in France. That’s it. Why? It’s not related to my field or anything I usually talk about in everyday life. Likewise, I don’t know, maybe you don’t need much more than 土, 地 and 領地 or 領土 to tell a story in an anime? The rest of the words come from some other part of Japanese.

It was just a remark about a general trend, and I did say ‘slightly’. 地震 itself requires that 地 represent the concept of ‘ground’, which may also be fairly abstract depending on how you conceive of it – there are many possibilities for what ground looks like, after all. 土 in 浄土仏教 is definitely rather abstract, but it’s fundamentally a metaphorical usage of 土 in the sense of ‘ground’ or ‘earth’. Now, admittedly, as a Chinese speaker who also hasn’t heard this usage before (I suspect it’s Japanese, really), I initially interpreted 浄土 as ‘cleansed soil/cleansing the soil’, but it seems that this is more a matter of how Japanese contrasts 天 and 土 for Heaven and Earth, whereas Chinese would use 天 and 地 (albeit we also have 天 vs 壌, which is closer to ‘soil’). Again, we can see this as a metaphorical extension of a physical reality (the sky and the soil being very far apart), but I agree that 土 can be used for abstract purposes. Still, I stand by what I said: as far as I know, generally speaking, 土 is a little more concrete. Not always, but mostly yes. I also think Leebo put it very well:

Definitely. I just wanted to offer a general guide that is severely flawed if taken as a universal rule.

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Sorry, I didn’t mean anything by my question. I was just surprised. They are pretty common characters in general.

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Nah, it’s fine. I’m not offended or upset or anything remotely close to that. And you’re completely right – they are! Almost all the words we can be expected to learn as children are extremely common, and I’d be shocked if that wasn’t true for 土 and 地 as kanji. It’s just that since I was focusing on how to explain the nuance, well, I suddenly realised that I didn’t have a lot of reference material in Japanese (my dictionary aside), so I just skimmed the definitions and relied on my Chinese knowledge for the rest.

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I’ll bite.

土曜日

地域
地獄
地下鉄
地下
地上
地図
地理
地区
地震
内地
地中
地球
地球人

I don’t seem to remember a lot with 土…

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領土 and 土砂 popped into my head, but there are plenty that are known to all natives but are not super frequent.

Also was 土地 mentioned? >_>

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You forgot at least the dirt planet 土星

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Shoot! I knew I was forgetting something important…

I somehow know the word 土砂降り but didn’t know it was written like that. :thinking:

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According to Wikipedia it’s 淨土宗 in Chinese? Pure Land Buddhism - Wikipedia

But can’t really say.

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I’d believe it honestly. It’s just that I’d never heard it, but then again, I’m not Buddhist, and I’ve never talked to a Buddhist in Chinese about their beliefs, so… yeah. Probably just ignorance on my part in this case.

To be clear though, I wasn’t saying it’s invalid usage. I just found it surprising. However, I would also have been surprised by 浄地, even if it probably exists.

Yeah, so, those are all great examples, and thanks, but I really only had, what… 土地, 地理 and 地球 in mind yesterday? 地獄 is of course pretty common in anime. I mean, I know most of those words, but I don’t use them often enough for them to come to mind as ‘examples using 土/地’. If I need them in a conversation or essay, they’ll probably come to mind, but my mind was blank yesterday :laughing:

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Wait until you see what day it is tomorrow :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

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LOL. I don’t usually talk about the days of the week in Japanese, and I don’t really feel ready to change my phone/computer interface language to Japanese, so I don’t encounter these things that often. I know that I’ll remember the word when I need it, but it’s really not something I think about much otherwise :sweat_smile:

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