レンタルおにいちゃん Volume 2

Page 13

「面倒ばかり増やしやがって目障りなんだよ」

I’d say what you have works as a general feel for what he’s saying. There is a bit of difference in nuance, however.

Further writing on this, with some considerations, and my try at a translation.

()やす can mean “to increase”, but also “to add to”. (Just another example where the spectrum of meaning of the Japanese word and English words don’t perfectly align.)

Kazutaka is saying Kanami keeps adding 「面倒ばかり」, nothing but trouble.

I’ll admit, I haven’t looked at depth into the particle ばかり, so I lack the intuition of grasping the nuance between the various English translations given in a dictionary (“only, merely, nothing but” and “always, constantly”).

I read this along the lines of “you’re doing nothing but adding bother”, “you’re just being more and more of a bother”. The やがる adds contempt to the statement.

Since the first word balloon ends in the connective て (similar to “and” in English), I think this is a case where the two word balloons are one single sentence. (I know, this is exactly the opposite of my prior reply, where the first balloon ending in な signified to me that those two word balloons were two separate sentences.)

Thus, I read the whole as being along the lines of (loose translation):

“You’re just being more and more of a bother, and you’re an eyesore.”

Or if we play even looser with the translation for something that flows better in English and still conveys the general dialogue:

“Geez, can’t you do anything right? You’re such an eyesore!” (I did break it up into two sentences here, because I felt that had a better flow in English.)

Page 17

「今のは手を滑らせた」

I've been caused/let/made to write a bit here, so I'll collapse it as well.

Disclaimer: I’m not familiar with the level of detail covered in Wasabi (based on your quoting). I’ve landed on Wasabi pages from time to time, and have had a positive view of what I’ve seen from them.

Disclaimer 2: This also means I’m learning along the way as I write, so hopefully everything below is correct. (I’m still a learner!)

According to this very much fully Japanese grammar site’s page on causitive:

(I’ll go into what this means in a moment.)

The site gives a sentence:

妹が買い物に行く。」 “My sister goes shopping.”

Here, “sister” is the subject, the one doing the action of “to go”.

The grammar site gives the exercise of changing the sentence to “My mother lets my sister go shopping.”

In this new sentence, the one doing the action is the mother. The mother is letting someone do something, so the mother would be marked by が.

「母が妹〇買い物に行かせる。」 “My mother lets my sister go shopping.”

So, what do you mark “sister” with? For now, I’ve just stuck a 〇 in there were a particle needs to be.

According to the grammar site portion quoted above, because the verb 行く is a self-move (intransitive) verb, the noun “sister” becomes a modifier marked with を.

「母が妹を買い物に行かせる。」 “My mother lets my sister go shopping.”

Note that this can also be “My mother makes my sister go shopping.” This form has an overlap of letting and making. In either case, it’s the mother that causes the sister to go shopping.

The site also says that when the verb is an other-move (transitive) verb, the noun that the subject causes to do something is marked by に.

弟が窓を閉める。」 “My brother closes the window.”
「母が弟に窓を閉めさせる。」 “My mother makes my brother close the window.”

You can think of the latter as “My motherが causes the windowを to be closed by my brotherに.”

Let’s bring this back to レンタルお兄ちゃん now.

If you are saying “my hand slipped,” you might say:

()(すべ)った。」

Here, “(my) hand” is the subject. It’s the one that slipped. You grabbed for something with your fingers, and it slipped between them and fell from your intended grip.

However, if you say, “I caused my hand to slip” or “I let my hand slip”, essentially saying you are the one responsible for causing that to happen, then you would be the が-marked subject. You did the action of causing.

When saying “I let my hand slip”, the speaker is the subject marked by が, in which case the subject is typically not spoken.

「手〇滑らせた。」

I put 〇 where the particle should be. We know it can’t be が because が marks the subject, the one who caused the hand to slip. So what particle goes here?

According to the Japanese grammar site I quoted from, if the verb is self-move (intransitive), then the particle を gets used here.

「手を滑らせた。」

Let’s see if the World Wide Web agrees with 手を (versus 手に which would be for an other-move/transitive verb):

Screenshot_20201122_132052

Screenshot_20201122_132215

All this has been me learning in real-time so far. Now let’s circle back to the original question:

The particle を marks an object. An object is what the subject is doing the action of the verb on or to. Here, the verb is “making slip”, “letting slip”, “causing to slip”. The subject causing it is Makoto. What is the object that Makoto doing the causing of “causing to slip” to? His hand, 手. This, 手 is marked by を.

One thing that CureDolly teaches is more or less that when a verb has a helper verb, we need to take the helper as the main verb. Seen that way, the preceding verb is a modifier of the helper verb, the same as every other modifier works in Japanese. In this sense, the main verb is られる (to cause). You can cause all kinds of actions, so we modify this with a verb to specify what action we are causing: 滑られる.

I’ve never seen this concept mentioned outside of CureDolly. I haven’t really read much in the way of Japanese native material on grammar to know what they say about the causitive form. (The page I linked to above is one of the few pages I haven’t yet read on that specific native Japanese grammar site.)

That said, if we use CureDolly’s view, considering the helper verb as the main verb of the sentence, then I feel all the particles make perfect sense.

In this case, we have the verb 滑る, and attached to it is the helper verb られる. If you try to work out the particles from the perspective of 滑る, it becomes confusing, because the subject is not doing the verb 滑る. The subject is doing the verb られる (causing an action, essentially), so the particles are from the perspective of られる.

Viewed this way, we can see that を properly marks the object of the action, as the action is られる.

If I were translating, I might go with:

「今のは手を滑らせた」 “As for right now, I caused my hand to slip.”

But that sounds odd in English (too Japanese), so if I work it out into what would be more natural English (even though it deviates further from how the Japanese grammar works), I’d go with:

“I let it slip from my hand.” (Implication: I should have been more careful.)

I’m starting to think I’m bad at giving small answers.

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A million thanks for all that breakdown!! :relaxed: :pray: This goes directly onto my personal “@ChristopherFritz answers grammar book”. Everything perfectly clear! I hope that causative doesn´t trick me again. And if it does, I know which source to consult!

Next time I´ll let/make my mind avoid that adjective. :joy:

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I was thinking of posting a question about these exact sentences, but was super happy to find @ChristopherFritz has done an excellent job explaining them already.

Also the Vocab list is a godsend as usual. Made reading through this section a breeze.

:bowing_man:

Thank you for these incredibly detailed explanations!! :pray: It feels good to get going on the next volume, and this week mostly went smoothly for me!

I do have one comment about this one, as I consulted my partner on it while reading:

Page 14

When I read it myself, I thought the same as you, but my partner pointed out that this usage of な is actually the negative command. 思うな! Don’t think that way! “Don’t think you’ll be forgiven just by apologizing a little.”

He said it’s a little subtle to tell the difference between these usages, but one hint is that if he were using the agreement-seeker な, it would have been more natural for him to say 思っているな.

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I thought that at first as well, looked into it, and some things I read sent me in the other direction. I’m trusting your partner on this one, though!

Oh, interesting. What things did you read that pointed you in the other direction? (If that’s not too much of a derail :pray:)

Just random web pages on when な means “seeks agreement” or negation. I probably mixed up what I read, though; I confuse easily!

Page 27

I had some trouble with this sentence:
ご機嫌でもとれば簡単だって言われたんだろ
I’m okay with って言われたんだろ meaning “it was said, wasn’t it” or “you were told,” but the first half is trickier. Putting it in ichi.moe gives me something like “it’s easy to take/catch/remove? even the mood” and that’s not even addressing what the ~れば conjugation is all about. Any help would be appreciated.

And the very next sentence:
レンタルとかさせるクズが考えそうなことだ
Very unsure about this breakdown:
レンタル = rental
とか = or something
させる = to make someone do something
クズ = garbage, scum
が = subject marker
考えそうなこと = things it seems would be thought (?)
だ = is
“that sounds like something some trash like that rental would think of”? But that doesn’t account for させる…

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(Please take this with a grain of salt).

One of the uses of でも is to indicate “…or something”. For example, 「映画でもどう?」would translate as “How about a movie (or something like that)?”. ご機嫌 is the polite ご prefixed form of 機嫌, which means things like humor, spirits, good mood, etc. So this first part, 「ご機嫌でも」, would be “good spirits/humor or something”.

The following word is とれば which is the provisional form of とる. とる is one of those verbs that has multiple meanings that don’t always seem related in English. According to Jisho, one of these meanings is “to adopt (a method, proposal, etc.); to take (a measure, attitude, etc.); to choose​”. If we use that definition, then the provisional phrase「ご機嫌でもとれば」comes to be “if (you) take on (good) humor/spirits” or, in more natural English, “if you have a positive attitude” or “if you try with good humor”.

(I think the implied person doing the action here is Kanami. So “if Kanami approaches this situation with good spirits, then…”).

Finally, the 簡単だ tells us what we should expect to happen if Kanami does this - “it will be simple/easy”. Here, “it” refers to what Kanami is trying to accomplish - eating with her お兄ちゃん and seeing him smile.

So, I think the full sentence「ご機嫌でもとれば簡単だって言われたんだろ」is saying “You were probably told that if you approached the situation with high spirits or something, it would be simple, right?”, or, to put English words in a Japanese speaker’s mouth based on context, “You were probably told that if you came to me with a positive attitude or something, I’d just do what you want, right?”

Let me know if this makes sense!

For this one, I think the portion before the が is supposed to be a noun phrase. So I broke 「レンタルとかさせるクズ」down as「レンタルさせる」and「クズ」. The first part is saying “made to do rental (among other things)”, and the second part is saying “trash”. From this, we can see that the first part is actually describing what kind of trash he’s talking about - trash that made him/her/them do the rental. So I’d translate that portion as “that trash that made (you/me/us) do the rental (among other things)”. That is then followed by the rest, where he basically says “seems like (he’s) thinking”.

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Week 2: Pages 19–40

Start Date: 2020-11-27T15:00:00Z

0821_rental_1280_02_021x

Conversation for week 2’s is well underway!

Vocabulary List

Page Numbers Guide (thumbnail spoilers)

There’s a jump from 16 pages last week to 22 pages this week, but the amount of reading is about them same. We get more lot of pages with little to no dialogue this week!

Participation

Mark your participation status by voting in this poll.
(You can change your answer later if you’d like.)

  • I’m reading along.
  • I have finished this part.

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Thanks, that was all very helpful! It can be tricky to pick out where one clause ends and another begins.

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I do have an alternate theory about ご機嫌でもとれば. There’s a phrase 機嫌を取る that means “to butter up” or “to curry favor”.

Considering お兄ちゃん’s tone in that scene, I feel that’s the meaning he’s intending here. As @BarelyFragile has mentioned, the でも adds a sense of vagueness (often translated as “… or something”), so I feel the sentence translates to something like

“You were told that if you just butter me up or something it would be easy”.

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And from the handy dandy vocabulary sheet, we also have:

Screenshot_20201127_173920

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Thank you for pointing this out! This makes a lot of sense

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This week’s reading actually went pretty smoothly! But I was still able to find a sentence to ask about:

Page 28: 適当な甘い言葉で金を取り続けるような奴

I’m struggling to break it down, but I think the meaning it’s trying to convey is:

He’s saying such irresponsibly kind things because he’s being paid to

Could someone help me out with a more direct translation?

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Page 28

Your translation is very close. They key point to look for here is, what kind of sentence is this?

There are three sentence types. Noun sentences, adjective sentences, and verb sentences.

If it ends in a noun + だ, it’s a noun sentence. A noun sentence is defining the subject, saying “Subject is a member of the group [noun]”. The meaning is essentially, “B is a group, and A belongs to it.” Same as in English, where if you say “A kitten is a cat,” you are saying “cat” is a group, and “kitten” belongs to that group.

If it ends in an adjective (words that end in a hiragana い), then it’s an adjective sentence. This describes the subject, saying “Subject has the quality [adjective]”. “The ball is white.” “The lemon is tart.”

And finally, if it ends in a verb (words that end with the う sound), then it’s a verb sentence. Here, the subject is performing an action, saying “Subject performs the action [verb].”

Kazutaka’s dialogue ends in a noun. While noun sentences end in a noun + だ, the だ can actually be left off in casual conversation. You can consider that if the sentence ends in a noun, the だ is implied.

Looking at the sentence as a noun sentence rather than a verb sentence (because the overall sentence ends in a noun), how does this change your translation?

Or, if you'd like, read on for a deeper breakdown of the line.

Here, Kazutaka is essentially saying, “Subject is 奴”. “奴 is a group, and 奴 belongs to that group.”

Context tells us that the subject is Makoto, so the core of the sentence, when we include everything unspoken, is:

(まことが奴だ」

“Makoto is 奴.” “Makoto belongs to the group 奴.” “He is a guy.”

(Note: Kazutaka doesn’t know Makoto’s name, so in English the pronoun “he” would be used.)

Now, Makoto’s not just any 奴. What kind of guy is he? This 奴 is modified, to tell what kind of 奴 that Makoto is:

「適当な甘い言葉で金を取り続けるような + 奴」

This whole sentence is just a solitary noun with a long modifier before it!

Breaking it down further, we have:

  • 適当な and 甘い modify 言葉だ

甘い言葉 is sort of an expression for “sugary words” or “flattery”. (I’ve now updated the vocabulary sheet with this.)

In English, this could be “Irresponsibly sugary words”, or even more loosely “random sweet nothings”. (Note that this inner clause ends in noun + だ.)

  • 適当な甘い言葉で金を取り続ける modifies ようだ

ようだ is used to make a guess about the feelings or actions of another. In Japanese, you don’t directly state what someone is feeling or thinking. You wouldn’t say, “He yelled at his sister because he’s angry”, you would say, “He yelled at his sister because he seems (to me) to be angry”. This ようだ represents that indirectness about the feelings or actions of someone else.

This inner clause, which ends in the verb 続ける, would be “With random sweet nothings, he keeps keeps taking money.” Adding ようだ to it, it becomes, “It seems (to me) that with random sweet nothings, he keeps taking money.”

  • 適当な甘い言葉で金を取り続けるような modifies 奴

Now we’re back to where we started with the core sentence:

“He is (modifier)奴.”

“He is a guy (modifier).”

“He is a guy who seems to keep taking money with sweet nothings.”

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Ok I get that the brother also went through something traumatizing and that he also has a really hard time. And we only see things from Kanamis perspective which doesn’t make it any better but couldn’t he at least look like he is trying here and there?! I just want to shout at him to at least try to get out of his hole and pick himself up. Just one single step in her direction shouldn’t be too much to ask. (⁎˃ᆺ˂)
Sorry I just needed to vent that because the last two chapters were really heartbreaking to read.
(。•́︿•̀。)

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Pages 26 and 27 really show just how twisted he’s become, don’t they? Good luck, Kanami!

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I had quite a busy week, so I wasn´t able to start on this week´s pages until today, but thanks to the thread (both questions and answers) I was able to go through some more complex sentences pretty straightforward! Thanks everyone! Just a couple more questions (I won´t say small just in case @ChristopherFritz :joy:)

Page 25

一緒に食べたくて作り方も覚えたよ

Is this an example of a て form which has a slight causal nuance? As in:

I wanted us to eat them together and [because of that] also remembered the recipe

I´m also a bit unsure about this も. It seems it has to be “also” but I don´t know why in my translation it sounds a bit unnatural, like it shouldn´t be there. Maybe it should have a slightly different nuance here?

Page 27

なんて言うとでも思ったか?

This is the classic sentence in which, after reading through it, sudden doubts start arising. Is it something along the lines of:

Did you think on saying such a thing or something?

Because of what Kazutaka says afterwards, that Makoto is urging Kanami to butter him up, I interpreted with the nuance of: “That didn´t come out of you spontaneously, you had thought before on what you were going to say”.

And in the context of this discussion, why is there a な in between そう and こと? Does this construction with the そう act like a な adjective or something?

Many thanks to everyone in advance as always!! :smile: :pray:

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Page 25

「一緒に食べたくて作り方も覚えたよ」

If there is, it’s something I’m unaware of. I took it to be a simple “and”-like connector of two sentences.

I'm unsure about my response, so I'm highlighting this uncertainty by putting it behind a details tag.

In a sentence with は, you are stating a topic (the noun or noun phrase marked by は), and then you are making a comment on it (the part that comes after は).

When a sentence has も, it’s also a topic-comment sentence, except here the comment part is applying to this topic as well as to the prior topic.

For an example of this, we can look back on pages 6 and 7. On page 6, the mother says she’s prepared Kazutaka’s liked ハンバーグ. On page 7, Kanami says 「叶実も好きー!」 Here, she’s saying the comment, of ハンバーグ being 好き of her brother, applies to her also.

Back to page 25, we have:

「作り方も覚えた」

The topic is 作り方 (recipe), and the comment is 覚えた. And because the topic particle is も, this means there was a prior topic that the comment 覚えた applies to as well.

When Kanami says she 覚える the 作り方, what she’s saying is that it’s in her memory now. It’s something she remembers. She has memorized the recipe, so it’s something she remembers.

I think the other thing she 覚えた is that her brother likes ハンバーグ. But I could be wrong about this.

In English, we would say she “learned” the recipe, and she "remembered’ the food her brother likes.

Page 27

One translation you’ll find in Japanese to English dictionaries for なんて is “something like”. In that way, it’s similar to と marking a quote:

「『嬉しいよ… ありがとう 叶実』なんて言うとでも思ったか?」

Actually, we also have a と here, and it’s marking an indirect quote:

「『「嬉しいよ… ありがとう 叶実」なんて言う』とでも思ったか?」

Let's break it down little by little.

First, the line from the prior page:

「嬉しいよ… ありがとう 叶実」 “I’m delighted! Thank you, Kanami.”

This is followed by なんて, as in "Something like ‘I’m delighted! Thank you, Kanami.’ "

The verb that follows is 言う, to say. "To say something like ‘I’m delighted! Thank you, Kanami.’ "

Let’s ignore the でも for a moment, and say what follows is と思った, the indirect quotation marker と + thought: “Did you think (I would) say something like ‘I’m delighted! Thank you, Kanami’?”

The usage of と + でも I don’t have a proper grammar explanation for, but my understanding is that it gets used when talking about hypothetical situations (perhaps among other uses). If I put it to words like “such a thing” here, it’d be:

“Did you think such a thing as that I would say something like ‘I’m delighted! Thank you, Kanami’?”

Or, if we split the text across pages, I might translate this as:

「なんて言うとでも思ったか?」

“Did you really think I’d say something like that?”

When you have the stem of a verb (考え) + そう, you have what some people call a “な adjective” and others call an “adjectival noun”. So, is it an adjective or is it a noun? Well, it acts like an adjective (describes things) and it behaves like a noun (ends in だ, which becomes な when used as a modifier). (Further reading.)

For a (whatever you want to call the part-of-speech) like this, when it modifies another noun, そう needs to have な after it. Here, the clause ending in 考えそう is modifying こと.

Not the best explanation, I’m afraid, but maybe it’ll help a little until you see these so-called “な adjectives” or “adjectival nouns” more. ()

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