しろくまカフェ: Week 1 Discussion (Chapters 1 and 2)

no its not ので in this case で is like から

シロクマくんのお店は自然がいっぱいで癒されるなぁ
シロクマくんのお店は自然がいっぱいから癒されるなぁ

Looking at the で entry in A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, it seems like this is で3 usage. “A particle (apparently derived from the te-form of desu) that indicates a weak causal relationship”, “and; because of; due to; because”, and it says related grammar is から and ので.

The main example for it they give is
山口さんは病気で学校を休んだ。
Literally, “Mr. Yamaguchi was ill and absented himself from school.”
Less literally, “Because Mr. Yamaguchi was ill, he didn’t come to school.”

2 Likes

Okay, I’ll start us off for chapter 2 :slight_smile:

Bis version, page 9

  • Panel 1, no dialogue

  • Panel 2

    • Panda: なにが釣れるかナー
      • なに - What
      • が - (subject marker)
      • 釣れる - the potential form of 釣る (“to fish/catch/lure in”), “will fish/catch/lure in” (NOT the shortened version as I originally wrote. Thanks @NLeseul for the correction.)
      • かナー - I wonder (with an elongated final vowel/katakana for style)
    • Panda: I wonder what we’ll catch?
  • Panel 3

    • Fisherman: おや シロクマさん パンダさん

      • おや - oh!
      • しろくまさん - Shirokuma
      • ぱんださん - Panda
    • Fisherman: Oh, Shirokuma and Panda!

    • Fisherman: 今日は海釣りかい?

      • 今日 - Today
      • は - (topic marker)
      • 海釣り - sea fishing
      • かい? - (question particle)
    • Fisherman: You’re sea fishing today, huh?

  • Panel 4

    • Panda: ボクたちには “シロクマ” と “パンダ” じゃない名前があるんです

      • ボクたち - we (僕/ぼく in katakana for style)
      • には - (target/indirect object particle + topic marker)
      • “シロクマ” と “パンダ” - “Shirokuma” and “Panda”
      • じゃない - are not
      • 名前 - name
      • が - (subject marker)
      • ある - to exist
      • んです - explanatory
    • Panda: Our names aren’t “Shirokuma” and “Panda”.

    • Panda: We have names other than “Shirokuma” and “Panda”. (Thanks @gqad!)

    • Shirokuma: じつは

      • じつは - expression meaning “as a matter of fact”, “actually”, etc.
    • Shirokuma: Really

    • Fisherman: へー?

      • へー - really?
    • Fisherman: Really?

Possibly the fisherman and Shirokuma’s lines should be reversed, but that’s how they flow in the panel, as far as I can tell.

9 Likes

Thanks for continuing it! I was getting worried that the thread seemed to have died off yesterday.

One minor correction… 釣れる is simply the potential form of 釣る. 釣られる would be the passive form. 釣る is a 五段 verb, so you form the potential from the ~え stem (連れ+る), and the passive from the ~あ stem (釣ら+れる). Assuming I’m not getting everything mixed up in my head.

2 Likes

Yep, you’re right. I got them reversed.

I still have “る-verb” and “う-verb” too ingrained, even though it seems like if anything most verbs that end with る are actually so-called う-verbs. Learning them as ”る-verbs” and “う-verbs” has probably hurt me more than it ever helped me, heh. I intellectually understand now how to differentiate them (at least, I know if it doesn’t end with eru/iru it definitely isn’t a る-verb), but it still trips me up.

2 Likes

Yeah, actually understanding that they’re “five-stem” and “one-stem” verbs was huge for me. I could never keep track of what sources were going on about when they tried to explain it with a bunch of waffle about how “verbs ending in -ru are -ru verbs, unless they’re actually -u verbs, and some of them end in -eru or -iru, but you have to memorize them anyway because not always” or whatever.

I had a question about this part. Clearly they also go by Shirokuma and Panda so I couldn’t tell if they were making up fake names instead of their own or if the meaning of this was closer to “We have names that aren’t Shirokuma and Panda.” As in, they have names in addition to those (that they go on to explain). The sentence structure じゃない名前があるんです might suggest this? Or maybe the joke just flew right over my head :sweat_smile:

2 Likes

That’s possible. I read it as them messing with the guy by pretending those weren’t their names, especially considering Shirokuma later asks Panda 「なんで ハマムラ?」, which seems like a weird question if ハマムラ was his real name. But I could definitely be wrong.

2 Likes

Ah, yeah, from context I think you’re right. I think they made another few comments like that in the story to suggest they made up the names too. Just love messing with others, I’m sure :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks, I just got confused because I thought there were some comments further up that implied these were their real names, lol.

Continuing on to Bis version, page 10

  • Panel 1

    • Panda: ボクはハマムラ

      • ボク - I - 僕/ぼく in katakana
      • は - (topic marker)
      • ハマムラ - Hamamura - a name
    • Panda: I’m Hamamura

    • Shirokuma: ボクは伊集院

      • ボク - I - 僕/ぼく in katakana
      • は - (topic marker)
      • 伊集院 - Ijuuin - a name. No idea if it’s some kind of joke or reference.
    • Shirokuma: I’m Ijuuin

  • Panel 2

    • Fisherman: じゃ ハマムラさん 伊集院さん

      • じゃ - then, well, so, etc.
      • ハマムラさん - Hamamura - a name
      • 伊集院さん - Ijuuin - a name
    • Fisherman: Well then, Hamamura, Ijuuin

    • Fisherman: ごきげんよう…

      • ごきげんよう… - farewell, goodbye, etc.
    • Fisherman: Goodbye

  • Panel 3, no dialogue

  • Panel 4

    • Panda: 伊集院ってホント?

      • 伊集院 - Ijuuin - a name
      • って - (casual quoting particle)
      • ホント? - really - 本当/ほんとう in katakana
    • Panda: Is your name really Ijuuin?

    • Shirokuma: もちろんウソー

      • もちろん - of course
      • ウソー - lie - in katakana and with an elongated ending vowel
    • Shirokuma: That was a lie, of course

  • Panel 5

    • Shirokuma: なんでハマムラ?
      • なんで - why
      • ハマムラ?- Hamamura - a name
    • Shirokuma: Why Hamamura?
  • Panel 6

    • Panda: こういうのが好きなんだ

      • こういう - Such, this sort of, like this, etc.
      • の - (nominalizing particle) - turns the proceeding into a noun
      • が - (subject marker)
      • 好き - like
      • なん - what
      • だ - is - copula
    • Panda: I like this sort of thing (Pretty unsure of this translation; any corrections or confirmations would be great!)

    • Panda: 知ってる?

      • 知ってる? - understanding - shortened form of 知っている, the progressive form of 知る, “to understand/be aware of/comprehend, etc.”
    • Panda: Understand? (Maybe more like, “Get it?”?)

  • Panel 7

    • Shirokuma: へー

      • へー - Really?
    • Shirokuma: Really?

    • Panda: 逆向きだとハムマル~

      • 逆向き - Opposite direction
      • だと - if that’s the case
      • ハムマル~ - Hamumaru - a name
    • Panda: When I turn the other way, it’s Hamumaru (REALLY unsure of this one, particularly around だと–for instance is that the copula and the conditional と or its own thing?)

7 Likes

Use the HTML < sup > tag. で3.

(Or, since it’s a 3, you can just use the unicode symbol ³.)

Nah, that’s how they’re arranged.

… Whoa. Of the five-hundred-odd most-common verbs, 149 are る-verbs, but 177 are う-verbs masquerading as る-verbs. This is like I-before-E all over again.

Though, it’s still far better to learn them as う-verbs and る-verbs than it is to learn them as “group 1” and “group 2” verbs, which too many sources still do, because which group do either of those names even refer to?

Spoiler alert: They’re making up fake names.

4 Likes

Ah, had no idea you could use HTML tags. I tried looking up the BBCode tag, but it didn’t work.

Heh, I didn’t notice the first time through, but just now when I went through to do the line-by-line, Shirokuma literally says that he, at least, was lying.

As near as I can tell this is strictly correct. If I were translating this for an audience that was less familiar with making faces from letters (a la へのへのもへし) then I’d change this line (and/or the following 知ってる?) to explain the joke a bit more.

In my personal notes, I translated this panel as:
Panda: Cause I like making faces from letters.
Panda: It’s written on my face!
…even though it’s not very literal.

Between this and the puns in the first chapter, which I can only assume will get more elaborate, it isn’t surprising this hasn’t been picked up for an official North American release. You’d just be explaining lots of jokes each chapter with notes in the margins.

5 Likes

“We’re not Shirokuma and Panda, we have names.”
Perhaps this is a bit better? What you wrote would be something like:
“僕たちの名前はシロクマとパンダじゃないんです。”

5 Likes

This makes sense to me, but it makes me more confused about the original sentence. Now when I look at it, it seems to me like it should be two sentences?
僕たちはシロクマとパンダじゃない and 名前があるんです
Is there a reason they’re one sentence in the speech bubble? Some bit of grammar I’m not picking up on?

1 Like

Now that you mention it, it should be two sentences. I don’t know why it’s not.

2 Likes

See, I thought シロクマとパンダじゃない modified the 名前 to be something like ‘names that are not Shirokuma and Panda’ and the があるんです would be ‘there are’. So to me the sentence would read along the lines of “We have names other than Shirokuma and Panda.”

8 Likes

You know, I’m not convinced that your interpretation and @Kazzeon’s interpretation are incompatible here. The same information gets communicated, and your final sentences seem to be different in style and perhaps tone.

Unless I’m totally wrong and someone can clarify the structure of the sentence further?

2 Likes

That makes sense. :open_mouth:
I hadn’t thought about it like that. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’d say it varies a bit.
For example, in my interpretation:
“We’re not Shirokuma and Panda, we have names.”
That implies that Shirokuma and Panda aren’t names, which is untrue in this case. (but could be true, since they’re also just species)
There’s also the punctuation issue, where it doesn’t make sense without separating the sentence.
While gqad’s interpretation makes more sense:
“We have names other than Shirokuma and Panda.”
They are usually called Shirokuma and Panda, and they’re giving further information on how they indeed have names other than Shirokuma and Panda.

Never mind all that. :joy: After thinking about it a bit more, they are pretty much the same.
It’s just that I misread, so the wording gets altered a bit.
Even then, I think there’s no doubt that gqad’s interpretation is correct. :slight_smile:

3 Likes

Very true. These kinds of discussions are pretty great for learning nuances, I’m already learning so much from seeing other people’s interpretations. I’d be curious about how the anime interprets things as well.