What was your grammar journey like?

Hi all!
I’ve been trucking along with WaniKani, since I find vocab a ton of fun to study and it feels easy and rewarding to learn with SRS. However, in my Japanese journey grammar is my weakest point by far.

I took a class last year that went through half of Genki I and I have tried Bunpro on and off with varying success. I find that the SRS first approach doesn’t work quite as well with grammar. Which sort of sucks as I feel like they’ve put a ton of work into making Bunpro a great resource but it doesn’t quite click for me as I end up having my eyes glaze over whenever I try to read a new grammar point (it feels like information overload), and trying to do rote memorization via the SRS doesn’t sink in either.

So! I wanted to make this topic to get some inspiration on other methods to learn (or maybe get confirmation that I should just stick to something I’m already doing). What worked for you? What didn’t? I’m really interested in what peoples’ grammar journeys have been like.

Also, if you have any favourite resources I’d love to hear them too! I own Genki I and Minna I & II but textbooks fall a little flat for me (I’m not a huge fan of the keigo first approach). I’m considering giving Tae Kim’s guide a try next. (does anyone have tips on how they tackled it so that it sunk in? I feel like I read things about grammar and they don’t really stay in my brain if that makes sense LOL)

4 Likes

I will just be watching as I desperately need to find a way to learn grammar that works for me…

1 Like

Do you read Japanese? I think my suggestion to you would be to read and read and read some more, and look up unknown grammar points as you go. Maybe get the Dictionary of Japanese grammar (there is one for Basic, Intermediate and Advanced) so you can easily look up.

Having said that, even though I love to learn through reading, I think going through a textbook first is a good idea. It will help you learn the basics so you don’t have to look up everything. Maybe look at something like Tokini Andy’s videos so you don’t have to learn everything from the textbook. The Genki exercises by Seth Clydesdale are also a good resource.

Most of all, try to have fun with your studies! Language learning is supposed to be fun, not a chore.

5 Likes

I’ll second Marifly:

No grammar study worked for me until I started reading regularly (with grammar and vocab lookups as needed). My brain needed me to actually use grammar in order to understand what to do with new grammar points I guess. In my experience, as long as you’re reading regularly an SRS first approach for new grammar points can work.

3 Likes

I’ll third that. Grammar studies are tedious and they just make you good at grammar tests. Actually being able to do something with the language comes through exposure to japanese. Grammar can help a bit with that, but why bother if it is not fun anyway. :slight_smile:
I get the need that many feel with structural approaches and how SRS would be perfect for that. But seriously, SRS only makes it seem like you learn a lot in a short time, that’s why most people load themselves with it: Fast “advances” with very low effort. Unfortunately that is not how it works!
Or rather… it is actually exactly how it works, as reading is super fun. :smiley:

3 Likes

I agree with the above post, reading is the key. Especially all the way up to N3 where the grammar constructs appear so consistently.
Whatever Grammar source you choose to work through look use accompanying Youtube lessons that are available online, these will help to solidify the information and sometimes give a bit more context. When you have chosen your Grammar source set a path way to work through.

Mine was;
Japanese From Zero 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 > Quartet > Quartet 2 > Intermediate Dictionary of Grammar

Supplement your Grammar Path with NHK News Easy, Satori Reader and other material that does not bore you to tears all the way up to tackling native content that interests you. Good Luck!

2 Likes

Thank you all for the insightful replies so far!!! I definitely think they’re addressing some points I’ve missed.

I’m definitely guilty in focusing more on the studying first aspect instead of the practice aspect. I think the reasoning is that my first approach to Japanese was with a university class, which taught using Genki - and ties into the reason I don’t enjoy textbooks much, being that I couldn’t interact with much enjoyable content that deviated from their lessons. (since they really just teach you to read their passages about Mary and Takeshi’s student lives - which is a great way to see the points used in practice, but so extremely boring that I can’t keep up with it!)

Not much currently, except for the occasional NHK easy article and short Japanese twitter/youtube comments online.

That said, I haven’t taken the dive into long form content yet! I think I’ll try to join the next Absolute Beginners Bookclub that I’ve seen posted here, since the community progressing together and asking questions will hopefully be the motivation I need to start consistently reading.

Looking up as I go seems like a much more natural way to learn/reinforce, so I’ll definitely try that! Thanks for the resources! I completely forgot about Tokini’s videos, but they are really easy to follow so I might just go through his playlist again. :smile:

The main reason that I’ve not delved into reading much yet, is that when I looked up the manga ratings using Natively, most easier ones that I was actually interested in were starting at WK level 20 and up. I sort of had the plan to instead focus on speedrunning WK to level 25 and Bunpro til N5 at least and then diving in, so that I could have some semblance of what things meant. But in practice, it seems this isn’t quite the best idea, I probably just have to dive in and struggle with looking up everything for a while until things start making more sense. :sweat_smile:

2 Likes

This is not the most exciting novel, but it’s a novel. Written for those who have gone through Minna no Nihongo 1. Easy grammar and full furigana. I’m reading it now. Might be worth looking into?

2 Likes

I second everyone’s suggestions here about reading to help with your grammar.

I joined my first Absolute Beginners Bookclub when it was Horimiya, and my Wanikani level back then was 6 I believe? My grammar knowledge consisted of having done a few lessons on an app, covering about 75% of N5, and some reading of the Tadoku graded readers (Level 0 and 1 mostly).

Horimiya for me at that time was incredibly difficult, often having to look up the majority of words (for which the ABBC vocab list was a massive help) and even then when I knew the words, understanding the sentences was a struggle because I knew so little grammar. But I tried to guess it, then used DeepL to check a translation, and if I still wasn’t sure or didn’t know what grammar structure was being used, I would ask and then watch some Youtube videos to really drill into it.

It was a tough 12 weeks, that’s for sure ha, but honestly it was absolutely worth it. I learnt so much from just one book and by the end my reading speed had picked up and I was more confident. I’ve since read a couple more manga by myself and will be joining my third ABBC with the one starting tomorrow!

I think just go into it expecting that it will be difficult, regardless of how much vocab you know, because experiencing it in the wild for the first time is nothing like seeing it in an SRS, but know that if you can stick at, and read a little bit everyday it gets easier, very quickly!

頑張って!

2 Likes

Grammar is definitely a journey- I’ve tried a lot myself and really the ultimate key is time and consistency. Its been about a year for me of learning japanese and working every day, and at this level I can pretty much read a chapter of Nakayoshi or Ribon magazine without too many problems with grammar. Keep in mind i’m at level 33 of wk now, roughly mid-N4 level (struggles remain with keigo, passive, causative, and passive-causative, working on it).

As a journey, I would say that I started with Japanese from Zero 1 (both the book and the videos), which helped me get over my major hurdle that Japanese would be impossible for me to learn-the pace was slow enough and he built in a lot of encouragement that I was able to rewarp my brain into the shape to understand the fundamentals. From there, I got a subscription to Hana to Yume (my favorite manga magazine) and just went through reading pain, reading the bubbles that were understandable like “arigato” or “mochiron”. It was really more about solidifying my understanding of hiragana and getting basic practice in reading Japanese, as well as having the moral boost of ~reading Japanese~.

I was also reading a lot of graded readers too, listed on my study blog. Then, after JfZ 1 I began Genki 1 and Genki 2, watching Tokini Andy videos, working through wk, and doing Bunpro (I did up to N4, then dropped it because of too many similar answers and I had to choose one SRS or burnout, so I kept wk).

This was about August (I started in March 2023). I got busy with my last job so I was just focused on maintaining my speed in wk, not to finish the program asap, but with the goal to get to level 30 so that reading would be a lot easier (level 30 has been said to be where a lot of the most common kanji is covered). I also kept reading graded readers and my manga magazines. In about November/December I read through Tobira 1 Beginner and started watching the corresponding videos that are the best video resource I’ve found (at least for my learning style). It pretty much functioned as an SRS for me, going back in and solidifying my knowledge of N5, this time paying more attention to the roles of particles or grammar rules I ignored in favor of getting a surface level understanding the first time around. I finished the book, then read English Grammar for Students of Japanese since I felt like my poor grasp of English grammar would be a hinderance to the higher levels of Japanese. Currently I am halfway through Tobira 2 Beginner, brushing up on my N4 stuff, reading graded readers (still), and reading manga.

After I finish Tobira 2, I’ll start Quartet 1 and go from there. It’s just something that takes time, dedication, and constantly pushing yourself to go further in your studies and not circle the drain where you feel the most comfortable. In my non-Japanese studies, I’ve always read multiple books on difficult subjects, with a lot of overlap in content, to help solidify complex and abstract concepts. That’s always been the method for me- to others, reading multiple books covering similar ground with different ways of explaining concepts may be boring and fruitless- but I enjoy it and it works for me.

I also think sticking with WK is important because you will truly be in reading pain if you dont have a good amount of kanji under your belt- I would say 1000 really turns the tide in favor of easier and more pleasant reading. I read the content I like and that is easier to understand (girls manga) than novels right now- and with all the time I spent reading the same magazines over and over again for 1 year, the easier it has been for me to slide right along in a story. Reading the grammar really does solidify it in your mind, and I do notice how I’m able to integrate and understand grammar by reading it through comprehensible input.

2 Likes

As fate would have it, the next one is starting today!

Yeah, you’re going to have to read less-than-L20 stuff first anyway (or read around that level with a book club). It’s unlikely that non-reading practice will get you far enough to suddenly start reading at L20 and up…

I learned the very basics by reading about them and examples. Beyond that:

Didn’t work:

  • Textbooks
  • SRS
  • Written verb conjugation practice.

Helped:

  • Reading
  • Listening to podcasts
  • Watching TV
  • YouTube grammar explanations.

Very, very, helpful:

  • Miku’s shadowing course.
  • Other structured shadowing.

On Miku’s course, I think it is expensive, possibly too expensive. But somehow spending my hour each way commute thinking about how to say sentences, saying them, hearing Miku say the correct version, and then saying them along with her broke the grammar dam in my head and made other reading / listening more effective.

So my 一番最高の提案 would be to find something that did the following in audio, not text:

  • Clear explanation of the grammar
  • Followed by examples
  • Then Q&A testing
  • Then shadowing