What is the meaning of having ru / u verbs?

So to extend on what the title is.

Why does it matter if something is ru or u verb?
I do understand what makes a ru / u verb but I just keep asking myself one thing: why not just call it “verb” alone? why does it matter if it’s ru / u, what’s the point of it?

I tried to google it but all I get is explanations of how to know which is which, not the reason we need both.
Yes, u verbs are verbs that end with a “u” sound (with some exceptions + when it ends with the “ru”) but again, why bother having them?

Hoping some of u guys are able to help me with this cause i’m just stuck with this question.
Thank you.

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I’m too lazy to make a detailed explanation, but basically, they conjugate differently (which is why it matters whether its u or ru)

If you mean why does the separation even exist, ask those who invented Japanese :wink:

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ru verbs (aka ichidan) are like 食べる or 寝る and when you conjugate them usually you remove the る and replace it with something. So like, 食べろ・食べられる・食べない・寝ろ・寝られる・寝ない

u verbs (aka godan) are like 書く or 読む and when you conjugate them usually you change the う sound but keep the consonant. So like, 書こう・書ける・書かない・読もう・読める・読まない

I prefer using the terms ichidan and godan because with ichidan there’s 1 thing to worry about (replacing the る) and with godan you can make a form with each of the 5 vowels.

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You’re alive! hooray

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I think others have answered “What they’re used for”. As for “why the distinction exists”, it’s probably worth pointing out that very few languages are designed, rather they evolve.

According to Wikipedia, there’s five major eras of Japanese:

Old Japanese (~700AD)
Early Middle Japanese (-1200AD-ish)
Late Middle Japanese (-1700AD-ish) + Classical Japanese (-1800AD-ish, but primarily written)
Early Modern Japanese (-1850AD-ish)
Modern Japanese

Anyway, Classical Japanese is what Japanese students need to study a little bit as 古文こぶん in high school, and when you come across “archaic” Japanese in media it’s usually just borrowed a few words from Early Modern Japanese or older periods of Modern Japanese.

The 一段いちだん (る-verb) vs 五段ごだん (う-verb) distinction has its roots all the way back in Old Japanese, or even earlier (Old Japanese is the oldest form we have written evidence for, so everything before that is just speculation). It seems they think there actually was a pattern in the earliest forms of Old Japanese, where the types that later merged into modern 一段 verbs were mainly compounds of あり or a small list of exceptions that were mostly verbs derived from adjectives, so they think there was only about 100 一段 verbs. Then in later stages intransitive verbs started to be separated and treated as ニ段.

But this simple structure didn’t survive 2000 years of language evolution as new or changing words would just get put in the category that “sounds right”. So even by the time of Classical Japanese it’s hard to say there’s a meaningful rule as to what types of verbs are 一段 or 二段 (which all became 一段 in Modern Japanese) and what types are 四段 (which became 五段 in modern Japanese).

So the reason the distinction exists is basically “it’s the best approximation of what people were already doing when they started writing down rules over 1000 years ago”, which isn’t a great “meaning” as such, but welcome to social sciences I guess.

As for why any of the more structured language reforms in recent centuries didn’t abolish this distinction, it’s probably a matter of cost-benefit decisions by those doing the reforms. Sometimes the 一段 / 五段 distinction is all you have to disambiguate certain verbs in conjugated forms, so they’d need to start replacing/changing commonly used words if they wanted to abolish the distinction and that probably seemed like a lot of effort. Similar to how they didn’t decide to change は and を particles to be spelled わ and お, or make くる or する regular.

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Also calling the categories ru/u suggests that all verbs ending in in ru are ichidan, but unfortunately some verbs ending in ru conjugate as godan verbs, like 切る.

The good news is that there are only two groups to worry about in modern Japanese, which is the result of a simplification of the more complicated system of Classical Japanese verbs which had five different kinds of regular verb.

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Personally I don’t think you can mandate that kind of change to spoken language as a top down reform. Written language is something we have to learn explicitly, so reform and change of how it’s done is feasible there, but spoken language is something we pick up so early that I don’t think you could impose a change. We’re stuck with the gradual natural drifts.

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Well, either way, it’s better than calling them “Group 1” and “Group 2”, which is what TextFugu used to do. And also Nakama, which is what my university course studied from, except I’m pretty sure Nakama switched the numbers.

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My textbook also taught them as group 1 and group 2 (and group 3 for する来る). Group 1 was not ichidan :rage:

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Thank you a lot for the historical info, I love that stuff!

Is a reform of this scope even possible? I can’t think of a precedent in any language but at the same time my knowledge of these things is very narrow. I know of many spelling reforms in many languages but changing basic conjugation rules seems implausible.

Imagine if tomorrow some English language authority decided to uniformize the English conjugations by removing irregular verbs. Yesterday I eated an apple. I thinked it beed fine. Then I goed home and sleeped. How would you even begin to implement such a reform? It would be complete chaos.

What’s crazy to me is that ichidan and godan are just very good names once the logic is explained to you. Why not just stick with that? Even translate it into “one row” and “five rows” verbs or something like that if you think it’s more accessible.

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Yes, it’s rather odd that English language sources have invented so many worse naming conventions for the groups.

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I don’t hate the naming that wikipedia seems to have settled on, Monograde and Pentagrade. Maybe a little too literal (they’re translated 段 to grade because Judo dans become Judo grades, apparently), but at least it gets the 1 vs 5-ness into the title.

On a similar note, I hate statistics with Type 1 Errors and Type 2 Errors. We have perfectly usable terms in “false positive” and “false negative” which are much clearer abou which is which.

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Imagine reforming English to get rid of strong verbs. You would need to somehow convince everyone to say “swimmed” instead of “swam” and “drived” instead of “drove.” It would be a major change to the spoken language. Or rather, the “speaked language.”

Instead, English is stuck with (“sticked with”?) both strong and weak verbs, just as Japanese is stuck with ichidan and godan verbs.

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Minna no Nihongo?

Colloquial Japanese