I already read your translation before I wrote what I still donβt understand.
This might be a nitpicky point, but youβve commented before that you go by gut feeling when choosing γ― vs γ (and many people struggle with this), so I thought it might be worth weighing in here: I think this is a perfect example of where γ would be more appropriate than γ―.
Using γ― would be more appropriate, e.g., in the following scenario:
ηε₯³γγΎγ―ε¦ζ ‘γ«θ‘γγΎγγγγ
γγγγηε₯³γγΎγ―γγ€γγ«θ‘γγΎγγγ
As for the princess, did she go to school?
No, as for the princess, she went to the shoe store.
Though, as you noted, in such a case ηε₯³γγΎγ― would probably be omitted in the answer, as the topic would already be understood from the question.
γ«γ¬γ³γ―γγγ€γγ«θ‘γγΎγγγοΌ
γγγγηε₯³γγΎγγγ€γγ«θ‘γγΎγγγ
As for Karen, did she go to the shoe store?
No, it was the princess who went to the shoe store.
Here, γ makes ηε₯³γγΎ the subject, rather than the topic, thereby stressing that the princess is the new information in the sentence. This is the piece of the sentence that answers the question.
Awesome job on all the translations!
Itβs definitely fine to move away from doing them if theyβre taking too much time or are no longer helping.
Well, my breakdown wasnβt about γ― versus γ, it was about whether the subject (or topic) can be left out of a sentence. The answer is yes, the subject (or topic) can be left out of a sentence if itβs understood. So really, thatβs all I was trying to say with that explanation.
γ― versus γ digression
To be honest, I donβt really see why my example would be incorrect. Yes, γ is a subject marker, but γ― can also be a subject marker, in cases where the subject and topic are the same.
From the dictionary of basic Japanese grammar:
In this exchange a new person (topic) entering the exchange is marked with γ― every time. Also, in my exchange, the princess being introduced is in contrast with the first sentence, so I felt that it was in line with the contrastive usage of γ―
ηε₯³γγΎγ―γγ€γγ«θ‘γγΎγγγ
(I donβt know about Karen, but) the princess went to the shoe store.
In any case, I may be wrong about the details of γ― vs γ usage, which is fine, but I donβt think that discussing it at length is always the best idea for beginners, who are still deciphering sentences on a basic level. So I would rather keep the discussion focused on the grammar in the book.
Edit:
As much as I think γ― vs γ is outside of the scope of this book club, you got me thinking about this hahah
I asked a much more advanced learner and she said that γ sounds more natural in the second sentence.
Reasoning:
The actual information of the second sentence is like γγγγοΌγ«γ¬γ³γγγͺγγ¦οΌηε₯³γγΎγγγ€γγ«θ‘γγΎγγ
But if the first sentence was not there and Karen and ηε₯³γ‘γγ are sitting next to each other and you say ηε₯³γ‘γγγ― then it is contrasting
So @Wait gets the γ― vs γ crown
but from now on I probably wonβt digress about this more in this club since I donβt think itβs necessarily the most important thing to focus on for beginners.
And week 5βs thread is up!
My intent was to be helpful, not critical! Iβm too much of a beginner to suggest that your example was incorrect; I just thought, based on the sources Iβve read, that γ seemed more natural, so I thought Iβd open that point for discussion, in case it helped any beginners who might be trying to figure out what the difference is (or in case I was wrong and needed someone more advanced to correct me!).
Iβll stick more to the grammar of the book going forward.
Thanks for posting your helpful explanation of when the topic can be omitted! I sincerely appreciate all your input on this thread.
I am so so late, but my goal is now to finish this book and keep a page a day regardless of club, so I will keep up
For me, it takes me around 1/2hours to translate everything, not using any translation device but looking up words as I need to, and starting from scratch grammar wise. It definitely doesnt feel like leisure ![]()
Itβs totally fine to keep working at your own pace instead of keeping up with the clubβs pace! ![]()
To be honest, i have had a hard time motivating myself to read lately, since the exercice is a bit βbrutalβ. But I will keep up :). Maybe make things easier by translating more straightforward way (tolerate ambiguity)
And no worries!
Just want to make sure the club stays on track.
If you really want to read more about particles, it seems like the book βAll About Particlesβ by Naoko Chino is a good reference, and has a large section on γ―γ»γ
Hmm, Iβd say try not to overwhelm yourself. You could even cut down to reading/translating one sentence a day, instead of one page, and study grammar alongside. Your speed/ease of reading will naturally improve over time, as long as youβre doing a little every day.
It sounds good to me too, but I fear motivation would go down if I am not at least close to your guys pace. To me, for absolute beginners, I feel (itβs just a feedback) that maybe itβs a bit too quick pace (almost 2 pages a day to be on track). I will figure it out, thank you for help :D. I will keep posting here daily regardless. Less but still regular reading and more grammar could sound good
Oh so it is the " βOnce X happens, Y happens.β In terms of showing a sequence of actions, this works similar to γ¦ form for linking actions, but γ¨ emphasizes the immediacy." ? Like she arrived in store, and immediately this happened ?
Page 35 Sentence 3
γΏγ¦γγγγ‘γ«γγγγγγγγγγ¦γγ¦γγγγγγγ€γζγ«γ¨γγΎγγ
Thanks for this, especially the grammar point.
I have a question regarding this sentence. Is γγ¦ here to come (ζ₯γ) or to wear (ηγ)?
Iβm tempted to translate this as:
While looking (at them), her heart yearned to wear (them) and without thinking, she took the shoes in her hands.
But Iβm not sure that γγγγγγ¦ηγ¦ could have this meaning. I know ζ₯γ can have a special function when attaching to other γ¦ form verbs, so maybe thatβs whatβs happening here? In that case, I guess Iβd stick closer to darkR4bbitβs translation:
While looking (at them), her heart came to yearn and without thinking, she took the shoes in her hands.
Can anyone provide clarification/confirmation here?
page 35 sentence 3
It is γ¦γγ (ζ₯γ)
βTo yearn to wearβ would have to be a different construction altogether.
Also note that in this sentence
γΏγ¦γγγγ‘γ«γγγγγγγγγγ¦γγ¦
βthe shoesβ donβt come up at all, so the action isnβt describing wearing- γγγγγγ¦ is describing the βactionβ of her heart (itβs yearning/itching) , and γ¦γγ modifies the action ( of γγγγγγ¦γγ )
Edit, also you ε±₯γ shoes you donβt ηγ them so thereβs that too

