Would you say using a dictionary would help more than using the add-on?
Unfortunately, I did mean the Apple store 
I’m not sure how else I can download that app since I use an iPad for most of my studies.
I’m really interested to try out a book in all Japanese!! I just hope it won’t discourage me when it gets too difficult to comprehend 
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As a self-studier, Minna no Nihongo really intimidates me since I’ll be pushed into immersion right off the bat. Then again, it seems like a lot of self-studiers use it—so it makes me wonder that it is possible (I’m just not sure how 
). Tobira’s beginner book seems promising since it’s not entirely in Japanese, but it seems a lot of people haven’t had the chance to use it, so I’m not sure how useful it can really be.
Oo, this is really good to know. I like that it shows the pitch accent since that’s something I know I’ll struggle with when it comes down to vocabulary. I’ll have to delve deeper into my research for Tobira’s beginner book.
I’m stuck between MNH and JFZ at this point, but now Tobira’s new book seems great as well. Thanks for all the advice so far!!
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I’m definitely encouraged to try MNH after reading this, considering I’ll be a self-learner myself. Do you have any study tips to make the immersion much more easier?
I would say go for it. For the first week or so you might become best pals with a JP-EN dictionary, but after that you will be happy that you went full Japanese early on and won’t look back 
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you get grammar and sentence syntax explained the way a Japanese person would see it
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you don’t have to translate things into English to make sense of a specific grammar point’s nuance
My biggest tip is to learn the vocab before reading the lesson (MNN itself actually recommends this). If you do this, the only thing you’ll have to decipher is the grammar, and that isn’t too tough because the book doesn’t introduce too much new grammar at once, and the exercises are pretty good at relentlessly drilling it even if you don’t perfectly remember the grammar info the textbook gave you. Unlike Genki and other textbooks, the exercises are designed to be completed on your own without pair work.
I work well with SRS, so I just downloaded a pre-made Anki deck that someone else put together, and I’ve been working through that as I go. The pre-made deck I found isn’t perfect, so I make sure I double-check the vocab for each lesson before starting it to make sure that all of the kanji and such are correct. I also remove furigana on kanji I’ve already learned in WaniKani.
I also have been manually adding in audio to my cards, which is probably optional, but I’ve found that it really helps me a lot. At first, I was using Yomichan to generate flash cards with audio links, which I could steal and add to my MNN deck, but that was a little tedious, haha, and I was glad to discover the Forvo pronunciation downloader Anki add-on, which allows me to add audio directly to each card in the preexisting deck.
You could use another program if you don’t like Anki. Renshuu has some integration with MNN, and I believe Memrise does as well, and Kitsun might also be an option. I chose Anki because it’s very stable and extremely customizable, plus it works with Yomichan and other tools, so it’s likely going to be where all my new flash cards will be ending up after I finish WK and MNN and move on entirely to mining words from native media. I want to keep my outside-of-WK flash cards in one place as much as possible, so I decided that Anki is going to be that place.
The MNN vocab doesn’t really match up to WK levels. I have a spreadsheet I’ve been adding kanji to as I go which contains all the kanji that appear in the MNN vocab words, matched up to their WK level. So you will often have to learn vocab words a little “early”, because WK will teach you words in a different order than the textbook. But when the words do show up in WK later on, hey, you’ll already know them!
In addition to the main textbook and the translation text, I have two of the workbooks (Hyojun Mondaishu and Bunkei Renshucho). I think the workbooks help a lot because they give me lots of additional practice, but they definitely add more time. I’ve also been learning how to write kanji as I learn them in WK, and writing in Japanese is very hard and slow at first if you’re new at it, so that also adds time. Learning to write is optional with MNN, because if you really wanted, you could type all of the answers to the exercises, but I thought it was valuable enough to learn despite the time sink.
Because of all of this, my pace going through the textbook is fairly slow. Each lesson takes me about two weeks (which is, coincidentally, about how long I’m spending on each WK level). My pace is mostly set by the speed at which I can learn the vocab. It often takes me a full week or more to go through the new vocab at a rate of 10 cards per day, then a couple days of practicing the new material until I feel comfortable enough with it to start reading the lesson.
After I’ve learned the vocab, I’ll read the grammar info in the English text, then put that book aside and dive straight into the Japanese text. I’ll read through the lesson, then do the exercises, then do both of the workbooks (this usually takes me a few days). I try my best to answer the exercises, and don’t consult the translation text while I’m working on them. Then I look up the answers at the back of the book, and if I got anything wrong, I make sure I understand why I got it wrong, and why the correct answer is what it is. This is the only time I’ve had to consult the translation text and/or other grammar resources 
. So far, nothing has completely stumped me, though!
I also have a physical notebook I’ve been keeping which has all of the grammar points I’ve been learning in it. I add to it after completing another lesson in the textbook. If you flip it over, the back half of it contains vocab words I learned which have kanji in them that I have yet to learn through WK. I really benefit from learning how to write the words and learning the kanji that compose them, so that’s why I put in some extra work here. This part is probably optional, though!
Sorry, this is a long post! You definitely don’t have to do everything that I do, if you don’t want to put quite as much time into this. If you struggle with motivation and time management, I recommend breaking down the lesson process into concrete steps, then focusing on doing at least one thing each day to further your progress on whatever step you happen to be working on. Some days that will be more work than others, but that’s okay.
Here's what my process looks like:
- Prepare my Anki deck, double-checking the new cards and adding audio to them. Add the new lesson kanji to the kanji spreadsheet.
- As I start to run through the Anki deck, learn how to write the new kanji and write the vocab that contain them into my notebook.
- When I’m comfortable with all of the new vocabulary, read the grammar info, then attempt to read the lesson, trying to understand as much as I can without referencing the translation.
- Work through exercises A, B, and C, at whatever pace makes sense.
- Work through the exercises in both workbooks.
- Finish the last section(s) in the textbook with the listening comprehension exercises and review questions.
- Review the grammar info and add it to my notebook.
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You’ll do just fine with either MNN or JFZ and from what I’ve seen Tobira beginning 1 as well (though it’s too pricey right now for me to actually buy it) so don’t sweat too much. There are lots of people who use MNN as well so if you run into a problem someone will be able to help you with something you don’t understand. And if it ends up not being your cup of tea you can probably resell it and try something else. Also, there are lots of companion books for MNN as well so you can pick some of those up in addition to the main book and translation book if you like. Though, I’d wait to see if you like the main book first.
I have Seiichi Makino “A dictionary of basic Japanese grammar” very useful and deep grammar book. And I also use the app Bunpo for gradual learning from N5 to N1.
I think it’s similar in a sense if you think about only translating certain words. But the add-on is definitely more convenient as the word bank corresponds to each chapter from the main book. Besides, it also has some useful expressions or even tips and instructions. I’m skimming through the book now and I see e.g. there is an explanation on how a Japanese address in constructed, a list of national holidays, map with festivals and famous places and an instruction on how to use a public phone not that this skill is particularly useful today haha There are also some cute drawings.
It all depends on how you want to approach the book and if you want to utilize immersion to its maximum potential. As I mentioned, the book is a good tool for that, but I never really used it that way. I’m not really convinced that 100% immersion is a good method for beginners. But that’s only my opinion of course.
If I were to use MNH again for self study I’d:
- go through the first pages of the chapter (sentences and dialogue) from the main book, compare them to the English translation in the add-on
- go through vocab in the add-on and try to memorize as much as I can
- read about grammar in English from the add-on and then analyze the example sentences in Japanese from the main book
- when I feel like I have a good grasp of what’s going on I’d move to the exercises and try to do them without any help but if I don’t get something I’d of course wouldn’t hesitate to check. The exercises, as someone mentioned before, are constructed in a way to drill certain things so you should be able to do them without any help no problem, even if you don’t use the add on at all, and with its help - it should be a piece of cake
I think it’s actually really possible to use MNN for immersion with a similar strategy that many people use for reading manga and novels and other native materials. koohi.cafe basically employs the same method I do, where you use an SRS to pre-learn new vocab words right before you read a new chapter, so you get the benefit of SRS drilling the words into your brain, then you get them reinforced pretty quickly with seeing those words in actual context.
You can learn the vocab without an SRS, but it’s a lot harder, and I know that I at least have trouble remembering words long-term if I don’t review them enough times. If you use an SRS, memorizing the vocab will be easy, and it won’t be hard at all to read the textbook without needing to reference anything else.
I wouldn’t recommend trying to do MNN without the translation book, unless you have a teacher or tutor to work through the material with you. At that point, you might as well pick up a manga that you want to read and struggle through that instead.
If you want something to supplement MNN, I’d go with A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar over a vocab dictionary. The vocab list in the book has been enough for me to get a rough idea of what all the words mean, and seeing them used in actual sentences usually helps me understand better than a dictionary definition, anyway.
The grammar info is also generally enough for me to understand MNN specifically, but there have been times where I’ve come across grammar outside of the textbook that seemed similar to what I learned, but I wasn’t quite sure if the rule I learned covered it, so I looked it up in the grammar dictionary to double-check. It’s nice to have a comprehensive reference that has all of the information in one place (MNN sort of spreads it out, since it teaches the grammar gradually).
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Is that including or excluding n3?
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The Beginner’s Tobira textbook is more fast paced than Genki’s from my experience. I think it would be difficult for a true beginner, though for people looking to get back into Japanese I think it would be very useful. The videos they have on the Tobira website that describe each chapter’s grammar points are also very well done.
I find it more terse than Genki when not using the online material, certainly. But, I don’t know whether I’d say that it’s a faster pace. What it absolutely does do is cover different various grammar poiints in a different order (and a different way) than Genki. And, that’s rather the key difference. Of course, two important notes are these:
- The first Beginner’s Tobira book covers some stuff the first Genki book does not.
- The first Genki book covers some stuff the first Beginner’s Tobira book does not.
Give the different ordering of grammar points, though, it could definitely feel like it goes at a faster pace. But, I’m also biased, because I despise Genki, but love the new Tobira.
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My understanding is that there are 8 volumes planned for the Tobira Beginning series: 2 textbooks, 4 workbooks and 2 teacher’s guides.
The first textbook is already out. The second is planned for July this year, and workbook I/1 is for August. The rest is for 2023 or after.
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It’s easy to get lost in a sea of suggestions for beginner material. The phrases “different strokes for different folks”, as well as “your mileage my vary” are very applicable.
Some people don’t like textbook study at all and do purely immersion plus videos, websites and online services to obtain their grammar.
Some like the structure of textbooks, but want to hone in on only 1 or 2 resources and really learn the material.
Some LOVE textbook learning and can’t get enough books! This group is admittedly rare, and there are pitfalls in this, as you can drown in a sea of information and there will crop up seeming inconsistencies in translations or uses among multiple resources that cause frustration for early learners. I myself am using this approach, and I am constantly in wonder at all of the amazing little tidbits nestled in each resource. I would say the person that fits into this category has to have a really unique outlook and genuinely enjoy academic pursuit for its own sake.
I wouldn’t be the person to answer “Which books should I use”, because my answer would be “ALL THE BOOKS!”
I mentioned in another thread, but the one book I would save, if faced with a house fire or something and could only save one of them is:
This is a book that explains the terminology and function of ENGLISH parts of speech, and provides their Japanese equivalents, with numerous examples. Whatever resource you are using, this book would be a great supplement to aid you in understanding the differences between English and Japanese.
If I could save a second book, it would be:
Amazon.com: A Dictionary of Japanese Particles: 9781568365428: Kawashima, Sue A.: Books
This book gives many of the particles, with many many examples. It’s been said that to master particles is to master Japanese.
I know these are reference books and not really textbooks. That’s why I said I’m terrible at giving suggestions for this. 
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