The key fact I’m going to take from it is that it relates back to the original kanji for whatever part of the word it’s appearing in, which will probably come in handy for learning things like proper nouns.
Yes, only in cases of rendaku of つ and ち is it used, so 手作り and 鼻血. Or if the same character is used twice and voiced in the second occurrence as in the above.
I every other usage of these characters in Japanese, they were replaced with ず and じ in the modern language.
1 Like
In regard to the regional map, any difference there would be between the two characters shouldn’t be enough to someone off, I think. It’s similar to words like "catch (can rhyme with “thatch” or with “fetch”) in English, where the pronunciation can actually have some range, but not enough to break recognition. In the case of Tohoku, some of the dialects there are so far removed in general that recognition is going to be difficult for completely other reasons.
2 Likes
And when the sound is used twice in the same character. Like つづく 
1 Like
Yes, that was " Or if the same character is used twice and voiced in the second occurrence as in the above."
Yes, you could think of the rendaku づ as a kanji indicator, were you to see the word written in hiragana alone.
1 Like
Ooooff, I am having a mild linguistic crisis. I’d always perceived a clear difference between づ and ず because they sound similar to a pair of distinct sounds in my native language (transcribed as “dzu” and “zu” respectively). Initially, I was just going to explain the difference the way it’s taught to kids in Polish schools, but upon further research, I’ve come to the conclusion that the difference is not so clear-cut in Japanese.
Here’s a screenshot from the wikipedia page on Japanese IPA transcription (Help:IPA/Japanese - Wikipedia)
Notice how they transcribe the “z” in づ as [z] and the “z” in ず as [dz] (similar to “ds” in "cards)? First of all, that’s the exact opposite of what I had thought before (based on how Polish works). Ooops. Also, mind blown.
So naturally, I went to forvo next to check all this out and, sure enough, I could hear clear as day that they pronounced
- つづく as “tsu-Zu-ku” (続く pronunciation: How to pronounce 続く in Japanese)
- ぜんぜん as “DZen-DZen” (全然 pronunciation: How to pronounce 全然 in Japanese, Mandarin Chinese, Cantonese)
- ずっと as “DZutto” (ずっと pronunciation: How to pronounce ずっと in Japanese)
However, something dawned on me:
- すずしい = “su-Zu-shi-i” (涼しい pronunciation: How to pronounce 涼しい in Japanese)
I mean, the ず in 涼しい is clearly different from the ず in ずっと. I played the audio recording from the same user, strawberrybrown, to account for individual disparities and whatnot, and the difference is markedly different to my ear.
???
4 Likes
That’s 続く. Same character used once.
Mostly cause the “u” sound gets dropped from pure cultural laziness. In ずっと it’s “zUt-to”, but すずしい is more like “suzz-shii”.
1 Like
I think @Syphus is referring to つ and づ as the same character, the latter being つ with a 濁点. てづくり has four, non-repeated characters, while words like すずしい and つづく have repeated characters with 濁点. He can correct me if I’m misunderstanding. 
@undeerwood1 I also personally feel I hear certain words with clear distinction different than what the standard notation would be. I think one important aspect is that the “z” sound is very hard to clearly produce with much force or emphasis. You’ll either use the top of the tongue for a “dz” sound or the sides of the tongue against teeth to get a “jsh” sound. As I typed this, my vice principal just said 全然 on the phone with a very clean “zen-zen.”
For me personally, 恥ずかしい is a word I often perceive as hadzukashii, but that may be sensory bias due to the existence of 葉月, which I know to be clearly Hadzuki when pronounced (although, as a name, that’s up to debate as well).
1 Like
This is correct. The way the 現代仮名遣い is worded is “When the same character is repeated twice with the second in the sequence being voiced.”
The “character” in つ and づ is the same.
I think that at the start of an utterance (or after an ん or after っ), the pronunciation would default to [dz], but when it’s between vowels it’ll default to [z].
1 Like
Hmmm… not so sure abut this, the “u” in suzushii is still quite clearly pronounced (unlike in, say, 好き)
Wikipedia seems to agree with you, @konekush:
“In dialects including the Tokyo dialect, the voiced fricatives [z, ʑ] are generally pronounced as affricates [dz, dʑ] in word-initial positions and after the moraic nasal /N/ (pronounced [n] before [dz] and [ɲ] before [dʑ]) or the sokuon /Q/ (spelled ッ, only found in loans).”
Unfortunately they also say:
“However, actual realization of these sounds varies greatly depending on region and speaker”
Welp. I guess it’s one of those things you learn through exposure rather than by memorizing rules.
Anyways, thanks, everyone, this has been extremely enlightening!
Wildly OT, but for perspective: In Polish, each one of these make a slightly different “z” (voiced/voiceless fricative/affricate) sound:
c - like in cats
cz = tch - like in check
ć/ci = tongue gently touching roof of mouth - like in chin
sz = distinct sh - like in forceful ship
ś/si = tongue pursed next to front teeth - like in shine", but more softly.
ż/rz = front teeth clenched and little release of air - like in measure
ź = an almost pure velar, i.e. “voiced” consonant buzzing or vibrating against the glottis - like a softer measure
zi - zhee
dz - like adze
dż = somewhere between ż and a velar, combine d and ź - like gel
dź/dzi = tongue touches front teeth ever so gently while glottis vibrates, d and ź together
Famous Polish tongue twister with lots of different z sounds, and the phonetic reading:
W Szczebrzeszynie chrząszcz brzmi w trzcinie
fʂt͡ʂɛbʐɛˈʂɨɲɛ ˈxʂɔ̃ʂt͡ʂ ˈbʐmi fˈtʂt͡ɕiɲɛ
That’s … complicated. I’ve heard that Polish is one of more difficult languages to learn.
1 Like
This topic was automatically closed 365 days after the last reply. New replies are no longer allowed.