(The increasingly less) Daily senryu thread

[Separate reply because I don’t want to mess up anyone currently reading the grammar comment]

To net out the grammatical point: I think using は instead of の subtly emphasizes that it’s now that is boring instead of emphasizing boring on it’s own.

Does that make sense?

たったあれだけなのにはははうれしそう

It’s just a simple
thing, but mom looks
happy about it

i’ve got a 5-4-5 which uh, not the most poetic but since たった is just, あれ is something over there, だけ is making the あれ just again with a nuance of just this thing, along with のに even further cementing it as something the author doesn’t find that special.

It seems really easy but since it comes from heartfelt I don’t thing this one is meant to be too witty city.

4 Likes

I think you mailed it.

5 Likes

たったあれだけなのに母は嬉しそう

たったあれ・だけなのにはは・はうれしそう

Such a / trifle. Yet, mom’s / so glad

  • 2-4-2
  • ははは makes mom really 嬉しそう
3 Likes

Saturday, September 17, 2022

Ah! Once again days got away from me without me realizing.

Mea culpa!

(I’m going to rename this thread to “The increasingly less Daily senryu thread” …)


Previous senryu

  1. たったあれだけなのに母は嬉しそう
    たったあれ・だけなのにははは・うれしそう
    It’s just a simple / thing, but mom looks / happy about it

Tough call, but I elected to go with the slightly more verbose version.

Current senryu challenge

Volume: Salaryman

  1. 俺だって 診断結果は チョイ悪だ

Some interesting words here.

Hints:

  • だって can mean 何故(なぜ)なら, effectively “because” in a reply to someone asking a question.

  • チョイ usually means “a tad” or “a bit”


Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.

Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.

Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源(ごげん)由来(ゆらい)辞典(じてん) is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.

Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.

1 Like

It can, but not in this place in the sentence, I think? I think that だって with that meaning is a sentence starter. As a particle, like this sentence, I think it has to be ‘too, as well, also’.

Incidentally, there’s a jmdict entry for ちょい悪, but I can’t think what “slightly wild-looking (fashion; esp. of a middle-aged man)” would have to do with this, so maybe that’s a red herring…

4 Likes

I’m honestly unsure.

Every example in the dictionary entry I found seems to involve context from something that happened previously:

🈩 (係助)
① 特別のように見えても他と同様であって例外でない、という意を表す。「子供に―できる」「一日―休まない」「君も困るだろうが、ぼく―困るよ」
② 疑問詞に付け、すべてが同様である意を示す。「どこに―ある」「だれ―困る」
種々の語(体言・副詞・助詞など)に付く。
🈔 (終助)他人から伝え聞いたという意を表す。「明日は休み―」「こんなことがわからないん―」
断定の助動詞「だ」に格助詞「とて」の付いた「だとて」の転。
🈪 (接)前言に対して言いわけの意を表す。でも。「―、できないものは仕方がない」

2 Likes

So, if we unpack those dictionary definitions most of them aren’t applicable for our sentence:

This is the ‘particle’ use (係助). 1 is what we have in this sentence (and the definition is basically “even; too”). Notice that you could replace it with も in all the listed examples without massively changing the meaning. 2 is “with a question word”, so not relevant for us.

This is the sentence-ending-particle(終助)where it’s quotative, to indicate hearsay. Ours isn’t at the end of a sentence.

This is the ‘conjunction’ use (接)where it can mean ‘because’. As you can see from the example, it starts the sentence off, so it’s not the one we’re looking at here either.

2 Likes

I should try a translation, so here we go:

Reading: おれだって しんだんけっかは ちょいわるだ

Translation: / Yeah, my doc / report was kinda / so-so, too /

Exegesis: I think the humour here is in the way that these medical checkup reports are almost always just kind of a little bit bad (“oh, yours said you have a high cholesterol level too?”) and never give anybody a 100% clean bill of health, especially once you’re up into middle-aged salaryman territory…

4 Likes

俺だって 診断結果は チョイ悪だ

おれだって・しんだんけっかは ・ちょいわるだ

Health check up - / my results, too, are / somewhat bad

  • 3-5-3 translation. Had to look up @pm215 's to feel comfortable that I am headed in the right direction with this one.
  • ちょいわる was challenging, Goo.jp got me close to the meaning that it had something to do with behavior rather than just style. Perhaps the writer’s health situation is the result of “middle aged behavior”?
  • I also looked up だって, which proved to be educational (meaning and examples under 2). Initially, I had thought it meant something like “in my case,” but…
  • Still don’t understand why half of ちょいわる is in katakana. As one of my Japanese teachers used to respond, “なぜなら、日本語は日本語ですから” to some of our questions.
3 Likes

Tuesday, September 20, 2022


Previous senryu

  1. 俺だって 診断結果は チョイ悪だ
    おれだって・しんだんけっかは ・ちょいわるだ
    My health check: / as always, just a / tad bit bad

Notes:

  • チョイ means “just a tad”, “a bit”. Why katakana? I think I’d like @LaVieQ’s teacher: “なぜなら、日本語は日本語ですから”

  • だって is a bit trickier.

    @pm215 is right, it’s this definition: 特別のように見えても他と同様であって例外でない、という意を表す. Something that looks special but isn’t actually anything exceptional. The sense of "even … " comes close.

    Grammatically, it’s a 助詞(じょし) (particle) that introduces a topic like も or は. (Note to self for my diagramming rules!)

    Examples:

    -「子供に だって できる」'[It looks difficult, but] even a kid can do it"

    -「一日 だって 休まない」'[One day sounds great, but] it’s hardly a break" (talking about getting receiving a one-day holiday)

    • 「君も困るだろうが、ぼく だって 困るよ」“[I know] it bothers you, [but] it bothers me, too.”
  • Here, I believe the sense is that the author’s health exam results might look bad, but it’s nothing to worry about — the results are always bad.

Current senryu challenge

Volume: School

  1. 答案に「お願い」とだけ書いてあり

This is what I love about learning kanji. If I heard「とうあん」 spoken or saw it in hiragana, I’d struggle to imagine what it meant. It’s not a vocabulary word taught on WK, nor one I’ve ever come across before. But seeing the kanji and knowing the context was school, I could at least guess at the meaning (it means an “answer sheet”, a submission for an assignment — I can’t think of a better English word).


Remember to please use the spoiler tag with your translation attempts! Also, please include the reading in kana with your submission.

Everyone is encouraged to participate, no matter your level! Questions and comments are as valued as translation submissions.

Please try not to be disappointed if your translation isn’t selected or if you disagree with the daily choice: the judge isn’t terribly consistent with his grading (and has awful taste!).
Online tools like dictionaries, sentence databases, and even AI translation engines are fair game and can be extremely helpful. Yomichan is particularly handy if you use the Chrome or Firefox browser. The 語源(ごげん)由来(ゆらい)辞典(じてん) is also an excellent resource for researching the etymology of various words and expressions.

Here are the links to the 356 Japanese originals (spoiler free) and to the the spreadsheet with all the upcoming senryu as well as the translations to date.

I’m always nervous being the first person to attempt these because I can’t check if I’m on the right track before sharing, but this one seemed pretty straightforward? :sweat_smile:

とうあんにおねがいとだけかいてあり

written on the
test answer sheet is
just the word “please”

5 Likes

Gonna try my hand at this, but don’t expect good grammar

On the answers sheet
“Please”
Is all there is.

This one is a bit of a direct translation, save for the last part. とだけ confused me but I hope I got the gist right

3 Likes

WRONG!!

Are you an idiot! What were you thinking?

(Sorry, kidding obviously. I just couldn’t resist! :stuck_out_tongue: I know the feeling well!)

I think this means something like „He doesn’t even take one day off“ / „He doesn’t even miss one day“.
Nobody is receiving a day off here. (You’d be looking for something with 休みじゃない for that meaning)

It‘s a different dictionary entry (because of the negative ending) than the one you quoted above. From 大辞林:
不定称の指示語,数量・程度を表す語などに付いて,否定の語と呼応して,全面的な否定を表す。「だれだって死にたくない」「いっぺんだって来たことがない」

1 Like

Right. だって is more or less replaceable with も here without much change in meaning.

2 Likes

I can understand why you think this.

[Edit: Because, as usual, @Myria and @pm215 were right!

I didn’t at first see how this fit the “not as significant/special as it first appears” definition, but it’s because one day doesn’t seem like much to miss, but even one day is significant.

I missed this on first reading, but replacing “he” with “I” somehow made it easier for me to see.]

And this is yet another example of what @fallynleaf and I were joking about: this thread is great for highlighting any mistakes one might make! :grin:

I’m not completely sure I’m mistaken, though.

What led me to my interpretation is that this example is explicitly listed under definition ① in my dictionary and not under one of the other definitions.

Definition ① is the “not as surprising special/significant as it first appears” definition (特別のように見えても他と同様であって例外でない、という意を表す).

It uses a verb form (休まない) rather than a noun form, but I think semantically it might be closer to「休みにならない」than to「休みじゃない」.

If my interpretation is correct, I think it might be closer to で than も: 「一日(いちにち)(やす)まない」.

Thoughts?

I think this is where you’re going wrong. 休まない means “[he] does not rest/take a break”. It doesn’t mean “doesn’t amount to a rest” or “is not a rest”. It’s a verb, not a noun.

2 Likes

I’d suggest caution with absolutes, especially when attempting to capture nuance between two languages.

I’m increasingly of the opinion that this example sentence literally means “one day isn’t a break” or “[one] can’t rest in [just] one day”. I think the sentence has a semantic interpretation of it being insufficient for a break (it seems like a break, but it really isn’t).

You seem to be arguing that my monolingual dictionary put the example in the wrong category, not just that my English translation is incorrect. The former is significantly less likely than the latter.

I think 休まない is the non-past negative form. So perhaps “one day wasn’t a break” is actually closest? (Past tense)