This is definitely one of the harder aspects of Japanese to get used to.
If English did this…
This is definitely one of the harder aspects of Japanese to get used to.
If English did this…
Ok, first of all, thank you a lot for the help!
I tried to analyze the sentence on the website for ten minutes but couldn’t link everything together as you did.
The good new is that after reading your explanation it finally makes a lot of sense! With such a clear description is difficult not to understand actually what I was tripping into, wasn’t the fact that the verbs were modifying a nouns. It would’ve been like this if it wasn’t for the savior, Cure Dolly, that explained thoroughly in her videos. The thing tripping me was the lack of the verb that linked the object こと (with all their modifiers) to the 先に part.
So, let me try to write about it and see if I understood.
We have the first half of the sentence that is modifying the noun こと which is the object of another sentence (the one I wasn’t seeing). The second part of it is 先に , that means ‘before’ or ‘earlier than’.
So we have a ‘thing’ that Nishikata ‘やろうとした’ - attempted at doing - and then we have 先に, earlier than (him). The implicit part is what links everything together, which is the so called zero-が (Takagi-san) and the verb she performs, that is : doing that same thing he was trying to do, earlier than him (by the way, what purpose is solving here the に particle?)
Please, tell me this is correct
Sounds like you’ve got it, yep! The に is an adverb, in this case. If you want the -ly added to make the correlation more clear, you could word it as “previously”. Though…actually, I’m silly and your phrasing of earlier already has the ly, just modified.
after all these volumes … looks like 西方くん pontification is getting to you finally
It actually helped, I wrote it that way unconsciously without thinking about it and now it’s cleared
Another sentence is done. I don’t know how but at this slow rhythm I’m also being able to enjoy the story and the pictures actually design is so good, I think that 高木さん is adorable!
You guys are all at the 17th volume? Or have started recently?
The 6th volume, as @shuly says. We have been keeping with the pretty casual 1 chapter a week pace since all of us have lots of other things we are doing! At one point, I considered polling to see if people wanted a faster pace so that maybe we wouldn’t be spending as much time on the series, but I’m personally enjoying the leisurely pace and having something each week to look forward to that will be chill and sweet.
it’s honestly pretty good…it’s an hour a week… works out very well overall… and im sure @mariodesu will also get to about an hour per chapter at some point and then it’s leisurely fun reading… that won’t get in the way of other book clubs and brings a little bit of joy every week
That was my feelings on the matter too, but I did wonder if I should at least offer the pace increase to see if that was what the group wanted… Then decided I’m secretly a dictator and made the executive decision without voting.
I kid, of course. It just seemed like most people were happy with the pace anyway, and I figured if somebody wanted change, they would say something.
if you did want to go faster we could but then I wouldn’t recommend double speed because (while we don’t have many follow along) some people might think it’s too fast …and if you try to do something irregular, it’s too easy to forget to post the weekly thread with various dates…
dictatorship is fine… you haven’t been able to stop me from reading ahead from time to time just yet anyway
Yes, indeed it sounds like a great solution👌
I asked if someone was at the end of the series because I don’t really know mangas (as I told you it’s my first read ever in any laguage) and how long does it take for an advanced to go thru one. I hope I can catch you guys with the rhythm soon
The one chapter per week seems just right
Here is my attempt at analyzing the sequent line from yesterday’s box, I think I did pretty good this time even tho it was significantly easier that the last one, but I’m beginning to recognize grammar forms of the previous pages
そもそも → afterall
高木さんが → Takagi-san (subject)
オレに → to me (target)
助けを → help (object)
求める → ask for (verb)
なんて → not sure, I’d like to know the structure and etymology of this. Apparently is an expression that strengthen the feeling of what comes before, in this case it strengthens a negative surprise feeling
おかしい → unusual, suspicious (adjective) by the way, how does this adjective connect to the rest of the phrase?
なんだ → なのだ nominalizing (the whole sentence or just the adjective as to say ‘it’s a strange thing’?) I guess
So the whole sentence gets translated this way:
“Afterall… Takagi-san asking me help is a suspicious thing”
Looking forward to corrections
I would say you’ve got the overall meaning, so well done! The only major correction I would make is to なんて. While it can be what you describe, it can also be used as a particle to mean “something like; such a thing as,” and I’m fairly certain that’s what’s happening here.
I also would read そもそも more like the “In the first place” meaning, but either interpretation works fine there.
“In the first place, Takagi-san (doing) such a thing as asking me for help is strange/suspicious.”
As for the adjective question, I’m not quite sure what you are asking. I’m afraid. It’s just being used to describe what he thinks about her action, namely that it’s strange/suspicious. It doesn’t have to do anything special to be connected to the rest of the sentence. You can just say それはおかしい, and that’s perfectly grammatical, as well. A lot of times in casual Japanese, the copula (だ) is optional.
In this case, adding the んだ just gives it a more “explanatory” feel, given that んだ is a contraction of のだ. (Side-note: it’s just んだ, not なんだ in this sentence; since it follows an い adjective, you don’t need that な. That would only be there for な-adjectives or nouns.)
There isn’t really a good way to translate the explanatory の into English without sounding a bit forced; we just don’t tend to put those kinds of things into actual words so much as we just take an explanatory tone of voice.
The closest you could do would be to preface the sentence with, “It is that; it is because,” but the resulting English often sounds a bit strange.
Thanks for the correction! I didn’t know of this use, when I look up on google things like this, many results come up and it’s difficult to differentiate case from case. Also, I made some research on it but couldn’t find anything, can you better explain this なんて? I suppose it’s not なのて contracted because it’s wrong to use な after a verb, so I expect it being something like 何て…? And what’s the て exactly doing there?
I got what you mean, now that I think of it, it sounds way better this way
Hmm I think I asked the wrong question, pardon, with english not being the first language I try my best to be comprehensible but sometimes I just write weird things
Your answer still helped me clarify the concept!
Also the rest was of your explanation was clear, thanks!!
Honestly, I always just took it at face value as a particle like は and didn’t look any more into it once I understood what it meant.
Looking more into it, however, Wiktionary suggests, for our use case (since there are other なんて uses that would be different etymology):
And just to clarify a bit, the なんて that you describe (with negative surprise emphasis) isn’t necessarily different than the particle. I could have worded that correction better in my original answer. It’s just that it doesn’t always carry the “negative surprise” emphasis. That emphasis depends on the sentence around it, which is why I personally find it more useful to view it as “something like; such a thing as” and allow context to inform whether that is positive, negative, or just general emphasis.
No worries! Your English is perfectly fine; I just wasn’t sure what detail exactly you were after. I am equally guilty of asking questions that I can’t phrase the way I would like, and I don’t have the excuse of English being my second language.
I’m glad that the answer still helped!
Oh I get it, in this case when something doesn’t necessarily carries a fixed positive or negative note, it probably just emphasizes what’s already there in some way… in this case so なんて emphasizes the concept it follows just as the thing it is, ‘such a thing as”…
Happy to hear that I’m mostly comprehensible grammar can be a labirinthic matter to talk about sometimes
Another analysis (page 5 is almost over, this box was slow!)
そこで→ そこ refers to a temporal place, not physical location.
This expression proposes an action that would’ve been / will be the solution (or an improvement) of a situation expressed previously. What follows そこで is that action
気づけ→Imperative of きずく
オレ→this is the subject of the sentence so I imagine there is a dropped が after it
I should have noticed it! (not sure)
さすが高木さんた→edit: made some research on this, さすが is a term often used for complimenting someone/something for being up to the (high) expectations - or something among those lines. So in this case Nishikata is saying this with malice referring to the fact that Takagi-san has been good as always at fooling him… I guess?
Therefore I’d translate this sentence as “Takagi-san was once again up to the expectations”
I think you’ve got it, pretty much. If I were translating back into English, I might make some adjustments to the phrasing to make it sound more natural, but you’ve got the understanding, so that’s just quibbles for translation between two very different languages.
Early on, it definitely helps to translate to make sure you understand, but as time goes on, you’ll find that you need to do that less and less (and that sometimes you’ll come across something that just doesn’t translate neatly, no matter how much you try), and you’ll just understand it, only needing to come back to English (or Italian!) for words you don’t know at all.
I appreciate your comprehension, indeed, to give a perfect english translation is not my goal. It’s rather to truly understand Japanese logic, and the way I put my translation is just to show who’s helping me the actual thought process I’m make
Dropping here my interpretation of the first two boxes of page 6
→ “I have to think about my next move…”
→ (literally) “if I don’t think about my next move…” (sort of the なければいけない grammar point but with the second half dropped - a Cure Dolly video says this happens a lot)
→ “What should I do!?”
→ (literally) “How, if I do, will be good?”
→ What should I do to humiliate Takagi-san!?
→ (literally) How, if I do, will be able to humiliate Takagi-san!?
In this last sentence there is a potential form of the ichidan はずかしめる verb, which for what I understand, can be translated both as ‘can’ and ‘be able to’
Edit: I’m often seeing things such as
な、何 - or な…何？ said from Nishikata while a bit panicked and was wondering, is this a sort of wa-what? Or is that ‘な’ something by itself?