I thought I’d share here partly for some sympathy (please bring your smallest violins ) but also to request some tips. I had 2 trial iTalki sessions this week and they were… hilariously humbling .
I am under no illusions - despite many hours of learning, I absolutely do not consider myself any good at Japanese. But it is really nice to have seen progress - finding things that initially were hard / impossible get gradually easier / more accessible. This is especially true with reading which is probably what I’ve put most energy into. Of course partly I blame WaniKani for this but mostly I blame YOU ALL and your tempting “book clubs” and “study logs” sucking me in[1].
We may be going back to 日本 later this year, so I thought I might test out a bit of speaking practice and booked a couple of iTalki trial lessons. I was prepared for it to be difficult, but WOW am I truly terrible at it
I was constantly misusing tenses, particles were a total crapshoot, for some reason in one part of the lesson everything I said came out in て-form, I found a hilariously strange way of saying “please can you” that I have no idea how my teacher made sense of before gently suggesting I use “てください”… the list goes on.
My one success was saying "またね” at the end of the lesson. A high point. There was visible shock on poor 先生’s face at such an eloquent use of a single word in an appropriate place of the conversation.
As I said at the beginning I do know this is normal having never done it before! I just thought I’d share the pain here.
For those that have gone through this before, what did you find helped most?
For everyone else, please get out an appropriate stringed instrument to mourn the sinking of my delicate ego after crashing into yet another language learning iceberg [2]
Speaking is its own skillset and it’s very tough engaging the brain to parse and understand unscripted input and then figure out what to say back in Japanese.
Somehow in the future, it has to (?) become nearly automatic and that will also include not only “thinking in Japanese” but also mapping difficult language that would be easy to express in English to simpler language that’s possible for us to express in Japanese. 大変ね。
Totally normal. You get better at what you actually practice/do. If you read a lot, you get better at reading. If you write a lot, you get better at composing sentences. If you watch/listen a lot, you get better at continuing even with small ambiguities and understand as much of the context as possible. If you speak a lot your mouth/brain gets used to the usual patterns, and they get easier to output.
Now, it’s not like all parts don’t influence each other a little. But you still actually need to put in practice into the area you want to improve. The best practice; excluding actually speaking; is shadowing and listening a ton. The first part of any conversation is understanding what the other party is saying.
I’d recommend you to do some of that before your next lesson, to prime yourself for the lesson. That might also help to unlock some more passive parts into your active memory for the lesson.
Take a Nihongo Con Teppei and shadow some sentences and listen to 1–2 episodes in preparation, and it will help you for sure.
Otherwise, what helped me most was actually living in Japan and being forced to speak with people if I wanted to get shit done ^^. You don’t want to know how my first visit to the 市役所 went when I registered myself there -.-…
I’m also so much worse at speaking than anything else. For some reason it’s really hard to use grammar while speaking, even if you use it just fine writing.
It’s also not only grammar for me, but I can recall vocab when doing flashcards, but it’s just not in my active vocabulary, so won’t come out during lessons.
All you can do it keep at it. I usually talk to my teacher once a week, making use of Japanese, hand and feet.
My teacher told me she has taught people that passed the N2 and could barely string a sentence together, so we are just fine!
My tip is write a little script out for yourself. Then practice delivering it to your sensei, get corrections and rinse/repeat until it’s solid. You may even want to record yourself for easier review.
For basic conversation skills you should be able to introduce yourself, your age, where you’re from, interests/hobbies, etc. Basically go back to Genki I and practice until you get 上手d to high heaven.
Also, my theory is that speaking skills don’t have to be very high to get by in life. The current U.S. president is estimated to have the speaking skills of a 4th grader and is/was considered charismatic by half the population. That’s the level of a 9 year old, or JLPT N3 roughly. Most presidential candidates speak at a 6th-8th grade level.
I’ve also taken public speaking classes and given corporate training/presentations. The advice is always to speak slowly and use simple language. People perceive that to be more likeable and charismatic.
It is completely normal that you feel that way, especially at the beginning. While I am not fluent either, what helped me the most was realising that is okay to make mistakes.
I spent a year abroad in Japan, and what helped me a lot, and with that I managed to survive (multiple times) the hell of a Japanese 公会堂 (Town hall), is not being afraid of making mistakes.
Of course, you want to learn how to speak proper Japanese, and you should strive for proper pronunciation, structure, politness etc (shadowing helps a lot with that)… But what is more important is that you try to put yourself, as much as possible, in real situations where you need to convey your ideas in Japanese. It doesn’t matter if you fail. What matters is you try, and learn from your mistakes. And the rest will follow!
Funny story: I was hiking in Kyushu, and we had a beautiful view on the landscapes below. So at some point, I wanted to engage a random Japanese hiker coming down the mountain, mentioning to him how the view is beautiful. So I said something like: ”きれいですね”。To which he replied: "ありがとうございます”。I don’t know whether he was joking or he thought I was talking about him, but I had a very uncomfortable 20 seconds. xD
Yes exactly! So many things for my brain to process.
Yes good tip - I think trying this while I’m listening is a good plan.
I mean… now I absolutely do want to know.
Yes exactly! 頑張りましょう！
I think this is exactly what I need to do. Back to basics and practice outputting the things that I already understand well.
Definitely! That’s why I thought tutoring would be good - (a) it forces you to do it and (b) you’re paying them to help so they can’t be unhappy when you make all sorts of mistakes.
Without context, I would also interpret that as a compliment. For an observation I would expect an 景色、きれいですね。
The first thing I basically did was ask if they can speak English → no.
Are there documents in english? → no.
Then they keigod the shit out of me, even though I said 5 times やさしい日本語でお願いします. Sometimes they said the same sentence 3 times and expected me to understand. Luckily Japanese service is top-notch. So even though I didn’t understand 70% somehow the registration ended well. I just had such a headache after, and it took about 1h -.-.
For example instead of asking me where I live they took out a big ass map from somewhere in the back and got me to understand I should please point at my current house ^^. Don’t remember how they managed to convey that to me. But I honestly was in no way able to write my address at that point in time, so well done of the employee.
I don’t have any advice but I’m here to say you’re not alone right now. I started learning Japanese in summer 2022, and only just started speaking this month. It’s frustrating to be able to read books meant for adults, but to struggle with saying something as simple as ワシントンに住んでいます.
I once made a thread on this exact topic , speaking practice!
I’m only beginning to go through this with Japanese, but I did go through this with English (although a long time ago and under totally different circumstances). Last year I started some “listen and repeat” exercises on Speechling and think this is a nice way to ease into speaking! Some other interesting resources for speaking are the Japanese Swotter podcast and a few YouTube playlists featuring real-life conversations in hotels, stores and restaurants in Japan. We’re also planning to travel to Japan this year, and sooner or later I’ll join you with my own humbling experience of going through a Japanese conversation lesson!
I think nothing beats rehearsing the lines a couple of times before going into a situation. And generally just speaking to yourself out loud, a lot, trying to figure out how to best say this or that.
Also active listening, echoing back the bits that I understood to let the native speaker figure out what I didn’t understand and adjust accordingly.
If you are too reserved, or a have tendency to overthink or freeze because you’re trying too hard to find the right patterns a little alcohol may help to pass the awkward stages. Also izakaya’s are naturally a good location to start conversations with strangers.
Having a few ready conversations starters such as: “What popular opinion do you disagree with ?” can also help to initiate.
These are such useful links Windgreen, thank you! I’m definitely missing some practice - I’ll take a look at the playlist, and Speechling looks really interesting. Love that it’s a nonprofit rather than yet another money hungry language app.
Speaking of which… a couple of days ago I signed up for the 7 day free trial of Pimsleur. It’s a bit of a mismatch because it starts right at the beginning but also good just to get my mouth moving. I looked a little odd going for a walk around our local park while trying to follow along earlier
If you end up liking Pimsleur, have you checked at your local library? That’s where I’m getting it from. There could be a wait list, but you’ll save a ton of money.
XD I don’t know how it would go for online. I am a lot more shy in person and I needed help to break glass. Online I can take the time to craft the persona before activating the camera…
Pimsleur is definitely worth it for Japanese in my opinion. I got the lifetime all access (which you can use for all 51 languages) around New Year while it was on 50% sale.
I’m halfway on Level 2, but I can already express myself somewhat in Japanese. I’m almost a complete beginner in the language otherwise- level 4 on WK and I learned hiragana just last month.
Pimsleur + WaniKani + Genki is a killer combo imo- because it hits everything- listening, speaking, kanji, vocab and grammar.
Don’t worry! You’re doing everything right. The only thing you can do to improve your Japanese speaking is to speak… a lot. Conversations are great, but when I am alone sometimes I just narrate what I am doing. Talking to pets is also great. No pressure.
I live in Japan and I struggle with this as well. My listening is miles better than my speaking. Speaking is my worst skill so when I have conversations with strangers they are not always sure I understand what they are saying. As people get to know me they realize what level I can understand (and that I need time to think of my response).
The thing that helped me the most (at least with my conversations at work) was taking a Japanese for work class. There are conversation formulas for many Japanese interactions. Interactions with coworkers, cashiers at the supermarket, etc. are almost always the same. In my Japanese for work class, they just give us a dialogue and we memorize it and then adjust it to slightly different situations (by filling in the blanks with different phrases or words). Then we repeat it. A lot. Memorizing those dialogues was what helped my response time.
Since you can already read well, maybe you can try watching dramas in Japanese with Japanese subtitles. Seeing how people have (scripted) conversations in Japanese may help you with common phrases and when to use them.
) but also to request some tips. I had 2 trial iTalki sessions this week and they were… hilariously humbling 
.
later this year, so I thought I might test out a bit of speaking practice and booked a couple of iTalki trial lessons. I was prepared for it to be difficult, but WOW am I truly terrible at it 
[2]
We’re also planning to travel to Japan this year, and sooner or later I’ll join you with my own humbling experience of going through a Japanese conversation lesson! 