Short Grammar Questions (Part 2)

For 実現する, the dictionary lists them under the same meaning (in the vein of 計画・希望などがかなえられること。また、かなえること。), but there are verbs where the transitivity change indicates a different meaning. A good example is 注意する. The „being careful“ meaning and the „warning someone“ meaning are distinct enough to be listed as different definitions with different transitivity.

The action happens in 大正時代, so kanji written are supposed to be in old style, aren’t they?

I used to work with a teacher whose family name was 合樂 (ごうらく).

I have a question on this sentence I met while studying about the ものではない grammar point.

お金は貯まるもので、貯めるものではない。

But I’m quite confused by something and I’m not sure of the meaning.
Is it translated as “To save money you should spend money”? (In a sort of abstract metaphorical sense)
Note, what actually confuses me is もので, since the ものではない is quite clear to me in its “should” sense
Best analysis I could come up with :joy:
お金は貯まるもので、貯めるものではない。
お金は→Aa for money
貯まるもので→because it’s saved up
貯まるものではない→shouldn’t be saved up

Apparently this is a quote by Meiji era industrialist Shibusawa Eiichi. This explanation of the quote says that what he had in mind was that you should view money as something that naturally accrues as a result of you working hard and society valuing what you do; it’s not something that you should be directly striving to accumulate, because doing that is selfish.

He is the guy who is going to be on the new 10,000 yen notes due to come out next year, incidentally:
New_10000_yen_banknote_obverse

On ものだ grammar – here it’s just the positive form equivalent to the negative form ものではない, meaning ‘should’ again. (Note that it doesn’t only have that meaning, though.)

Why me, why do I always get caught by out of date Japanese grammar and expressions…
your explanation helped me understand the quote but I’m still unsure of its literal meaning: is it “As for money, should be saved up and, shouldn’t be saved up”? Assuming that in もので the だ is in the connective form で just as in ものはない

The grammar in the version you quote is not “out of date” (it’s a modernised form of the original which used である). “literal meaning” is a bit tricky here because the phrase is playing on the distinction between intransitive and transitive verbs, which doesn’t translate well. The closest I can get is “Money accumulates but it is not something you/one should accumulate”, but even that doesn’t work very well. I tried to explain the sense behind it in my earlier post.

Good, happy to know that I’m still studying useful grammar :joy:
anyway, thanks for the interpretation, I think I made sense of it

It doesn’t explicitly say should or shouldn’t though. If I had to translate it literally, I’d probably go with something like “Money is a thing that accumulates, not a thing to accumulate”. Though the distinction between the transitive and intransitive verb is less obvious in English

Edit: Also I don’t think it’s 貯まる+もので, but 貯まるもの+で

Okay, this lit that small bulb in my head :bulb: I kept seeing the two もので/ものではない as the same grammar point but the first simply means “is something, and” is this what you meant?

But aren’t those both intransitive verbs?

That’s exactly what I understood reading your first lines

Yeah, exactly.

貯まる is intransitive、貯める is transitive. In English “to accumulate” can be used both transitively and intransitively

Honestly I didn’t notice that, and here’s the transitive/intransitive game gets trickier to get

That’s why English translations aren’t a good proxy for understanding Japanese. Because mapping 他動詞 and 自動詞 to the English concept of transitivity is hard.

Most verbs that end in an -aru sound are intransitive, and most verbs that end in -su are transitive, so in any verb pair where one of them has these endings, the other verb is most likely the opposite.

Yeah I get it of course, but in the moment I am not able to make sense of something, I often found it to be the best alternative, sometimes even more than any explanation… again, I don’t know, perhaps this is how my italian head works :joy:

To be fair, I use a mix of dictionaries - JP → EN to get a single word gloss for Anki and JP → JP to understand how a word is supposed to be used. For very basic words JP → JP isn’t as helpful, because you get a roundabout explanation for something that could probably be summed up in 1 word.

However, JP → JP will give you a very good understanding whether a verb is 他動詞 or 自動詞 through example contexts.

Not surprisingly this is exactly what I do with new words or words I learnt whose meaning is still foggy. I will check its meaning from multiple sources in english and then finally unleash the power of “xとは” google search and spend some minutes translating the explanations :joy: (I find translating such explanations very formative actually)

This is something I never focused on when checking a verb’s meaning, as a good beginner I’m only able to focus on one thing at a time :nerd_face:

I don’t think one has to go through the ordeal of google searching what a word means :sweat_smile: . It’s enough to have 1-2 online dictionaries and/or apps.

Based on a 1-person sample (my teacher), some Japanese people also don’t really think whether something’s 他動詞 or 自動詞, but just use the language.

Hey, I find it comfortable actually :joy: I mean, it’s not the best but from my phone everything’s quite quick, the slow part is looking up for unknown vocabs. Although sometimes I will look up a grammar point in japanese, and while translating the result I will need to translate one or two more grammar points, and this can pile up. Basically Inception :melting_face:
On a serious note this is not really happening anymore because dictionary style speech is the easiest for me