Kenichi or Kyoko?

They’re both saying oogoe, but you’re just noticing Kenichi’s nasal g.

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This does point out another one of kenichi and kyoko’s biggest pronunciation differences. They tend to differ fairly dramatically on g consonants as well on ん on the end of words.

I think they do as well. There are quite some other words where the pronunciations between Kyoko and Kenichi sound different. I’m not sure which one’s more correct, because some of these pronunciations sound like they would sound fine in a sentence context with other words being put around them.

I see it hasn’t been mentioned, but a decent pronunciation resource is Forvo: Forvo: the pronunciation dictionary. All the words in the world pronounced by native speakers
It gives an idea of how different natives would read a word as a standalone word.

Regarding using Kyoko and Kenichi as reference, I would take them with a grain of salt. Those pronunciations are often way clearer and stretched than one would hear in a conversation or a news report where long vowels are barely longer than short vowels. It’s a good idea to listen to native speakers from various sources :slight_smile: .

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yeah, this seems familiar; i read about it in the tofugu guide, this whole idea of pitches. i was so happy in the beginning, thought pitch wouldn’t change any word meanings, unlike mandarin and received a disappointing surprise -.- that story is interesting though, at least it wasn’t the real thing lol

i think, doesnt matter whether you’re happy with it or not, it just needs a lot of exposure and experiencing it for yourself. i’ve recently thought about (because i would like to love to japan when i finish my process of becoming a doctor) to take a short trip beforehand and just expose/immerse myself directly and learn the language more that way. i’ve gone through so many reddit and quora pages of people, not just japanese, saying they learnt more in the 2 month trips to said country than the 10 years learning in classrooms.

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that site seems great, thank you so much!

i’ve been flooded with so much help from one post this evening, it’s actually been so heartwarming (yes ik it’s just a wk thread and it’s just a few websites) but i’m so grateful lololol thanks everyone

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Thankfully, the problem isn’t nearly as pronounced as with Mandarin per my understanding from my father, a native English speaker who learned Mandarin first then Japanese. (Aside: it was sometimes comical when he’d confuse the languages and have to resort to handwritten kanji to make himself understood.)

While there are occasions where pitch accent distinguishes which homonym is intended, you can mostly get away with just keeping pronunciation flat: avoid accenting any particular syllable. You won’t sound like a native without proper pitch accent, but you should be understood most of the time. Ultimately, mimicry is the best way to learn pronunciation though (the topic of this thread!).

Obligatory reference to a famous children’s story about a Buddhist monk named 一休さん (Ikkyuu-san):

「このはしわたるべからず」。一休さんが渡ろうとした橋のたもとにこんな立て札。堂々と渡った一休さんは「端は通らず、真ん中を渡りました」

The story is about Ikkyuu-san crossing a bridge despite a sign telling people not to cross it. He proudly walked down the middle of the bridge, stating that he’s walking down the middle, not along the edge!(Bridge and edge are both pronounced the same in Japanese: (はし) vs. (はし)).

Good reading practice for the future!

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Even just reading, that sentence alone is a pain to parse without kanji. :joy:

My immediate reaction is このは・しわたる・べからず

I actually found Mandarin pitch accent easier because the pitches are more pronounced and there’s less variation when they’re used in a sentence, like how はし differs when there’s a が or not.

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Agreed. (たもと) would have thrown me either way, though!

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after reading a lot of these replies, i have noticed that you really get away with mimicry, but rather than it being a cheat or shortcut, i guess you could just say it’s part of immersing yourself and fully learning the language because if it’s not that, then i don’t think it would be anything else lmao.

i had a chinese friend back in secondary school who was fully fluent, very attached to her culture and worked in her parent’s takeaway, often translating and conversing with regulars and she told me, she only really became more advanced at her language by literally copying the customers and her parents. “growing up in england, every word is quite flat so i got used to that so i just remembered how they pronounced stuff and left it at that”

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I only listen to kyoko, because kenichi comes off pretty strong. During lessons I would listen to both of them to note some differences, but for reviews I found sticking to consistency to be best. Of course nowadays I also put music on, so it doesn’t matter much lol.

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Shadowing is a totally valid approach to learning :slight_smile: . At least I hope it is.

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Seems to have worked for human children for the past couple of million years or so. I think we’re safe.

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Oh my god, a child actually shadowing (as in, actually repeating everything on like a quarter second delay) would be the most irritating thing I can imagine lol.

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