So WK lists 53 kanji it teaches under the radical/graphic component 夂(Winter/Radical 34),
too bad that actually only 16 kanji of them use it. The remaining 37 use 攵 (strike/Radical 66).
RTK for example teaches 攵 as a “Primitive Element” called “taskmaster”. Which per Cambridge definition “someone who gives others a lot of work to do and expects them to work hard” is a really good fit. 攵 is easily imagined as a 大 person holding their Victorian School Cane overhead
ready to strike some discipline back into you.
Which is easily, besides of course being the standard more accurate representation, way more on theme for all 37 Kanji that use it:
The 攵(taskmaster) is the one who 整(arranges) your 教(teaching), makes you learn how to 数(count) until they 放(release) you at the end of the schoolday. They’ll make you pay for your 敗(failures), renew(改) yourself until you 修(master) your craft. Because of their 激(fierce) and 攻(aggression) everyone 散(scatters), looking for 救(rescue) as they enter a room. They command 敬(respect). If you dont 致(do) their bidding and make them 傲(proud), you’ll be 懲(chastised). Until the day they’ll get 赦(pardoned), and retire to some 霧(foggy) estate in the countryside with an 繁(overgrown) 牧(pastures) to spend their last chapter in 悠(leisure), they are sure to be 敢(daring) students’ worst 敵(enemy).
WK kanjis that contain 夂 — 16 kanji
WK order
Kanji
Meaning
Where the 夂 occurs
1
冬
Winter
directly at top
2
麦
Wheat
bottom
3
後
Behind
lower-right
4
夏
Summer
bottom
7
客
Guest
inside 各
8
終
End
inside 冬
11
変
Change
bottom
14
愛
Love
bottom
18
条
Clause
top
21
降
Descend
inside right-hand 夅
23
優
Superior
inside 憂
28
処
Deal With
left/top part
37
隆
Prosperity
in right-hand component
41
拠
Based On
inside 処
50
憂
Grief
bottom
53
慶
Congratulate
bottom
WK kanjis that Actually contain 攵 — 37 kanji
WK Order
Kanji
Meaning
Where the 攵 occurs
5
教
Teach
right
6
数
Count
right
9
放
Release
right
10
整
Arrange
inside 敕
12
政
Politics
right
13
敗
Failure
right
15
警
Warn
inside 敬
16
枚
Flat Object Counter
right
17
改
Renew
right
19
敵
Enemy
right
20
務
Task
upper-right
22
贅
Extravagant
inside 敖
24
故
Circumstance
right
25
激
Fierce
inside 敫
26
徴
Indication
right
27
攻
Aggression
right
29
微
Delicate
right
30
修
Mastering
inside 攸
31
救
Rescue
right
32
散
Scatter
right
33
驚
Surprised
inside 敬
34
厳
Strict
inside 敢
35
敬
Respect
right
36
致
Do
right
38
敏
Alert
right
39
繁
Overgrown
inside 敏
40
敷
Spread
right
42
徹
Penetrate
right
43
撤
Withdrawal
right
44
懲
Chastise
inside 徴
45
牧
Pasture
right
46
霧
Fog
inside 務
47
啓
Enlighten
middle/right
48
悠
Leisure
inside 攸
49
傲
Proud
inside 敖
51
敢
Daring
right
52
赦
Pardon
right
Idc why i did all that… sry abt tht. I mentioned it almost a year and a half ago in my first post “WK treats 夂 and 攵 as the same radical (Ahh! aAhaH!!! The agony).” and rediscovered it, now that i have time in my ニート era, that its still a thing and yeah… why?
This got to be the biggest context hole there is in the current WK database by far, so @WaniKani if you are interested in a remote intern to take care of that hit me up.
What are your theories and opinions on this?
Ps: Or come and chat mnemonics with me over on my other topic.
It took me quite a while to finally notice the difference… Well, there’s a similar situation with “Spirit” radical…
Overall, I kind of see the point in distinguishing between them, but also kind of see the point of not distinguishing between them. The purpose of WK radicals is different from the purpose of the official WK radicals…
They did eventually split that one out into spirit and outfit. I agree with @vouchou, they should do the same for these two. But at this point, I expect nothing of Tofugu so that I’m never disappointed.
The clip actually made me panic because I thought I mistakenly typed 夂 twice lol. But thats due to the font. In different ones or handwritten it would look considerably more unique. Not to mention that its 3 vs 4 strokes.
Well, my guess would be the purpose of official radicals is to build coherent dictionaries, and WK radicals as a basis for mnemonics… which I think I made my point about: it would be preferable to finally recognize it.
Another example of a system that has used 2 radicals for these is the Kanji Learner’s Course.
A.S. Conning uses the term Graphemes but as with Wk & ‘radicals’ they are pedagogical aids within the particular system.
Taken from the book, appendix 6:
3 stroke gets given meanings:
Thx Rich, I’m not familiar with the Kanji Learner’s Course, but the
got my gears turning.
Turns out, yes: 攵 is “traditionally” associated with striking. It comes from 攴, which historically represents a hand holding a stick or whip, so meanings like “strike,” “correct,” or generally taking action on something fit it pretty directly.
As for 夂, it originally represented a backward/downward foot, with associations like being late, delayed, or coming after. But in Japanese radical terminology it is also strongly associated with 冬: Kanjipedia, the official online dictionary of The Japan Kanji Aptitude Testing Foundation, lists its radical name as ふゆがしら / 冬頭 (“winter head/top part”).
So “winter” for 夂 really isn’t much of a stretch, while “strike” is historically always directly tied to 攵.
So, not that this was ever really a point of discussion, but 夂 and 攵 aren’t just two slightly different-looking versions of the same thing. They have different origins, different stroke counts, and different traditional associations.
Which, to me, only underlines why separating them on WK should be a must. Considering there are 37 affected kanji, I really don’t see how this isn’t a fairly high-priority issue.
攵 and 夂 look so similar it’s easier to remember 攵 as a variation of 夂 than to take the time to distinguish them, especially since 攵 is rarely used as kanji. I personally think they should be treated the same.
They do in this font, in isolation. Same goes for シ and ツ or ソ and ン. You still learned the difference because… they are different.
It’s easier trying to remember 37 kanji with a completely unrelated radical? This is really a teach-a-man-how-to-fish kind of situation. It’s not about the value you get from knowing this random 配当外 kanji, it’s about what it unlocks for you. Besides, 攵 is a variation, just not of 夂, but of 攴.
I’ll go you one better. You will never see 夂 and 攵 being used as kanji since they’re both 配当外, aka not even on the 漢字検定１級, which is totally beside the point. It’s about the benefit of them being used as the correct mnemonic tool in WK. If you try to make 寿司 but you grab a 槌, you end up with すり身, kinda deal.
Actually wild back-to-back combo. Which got me thinking: How do you interact with the WK framework? Do you actively read the provided WK mnemonic? Do you create your own? What is your kanji/Japanese learning routine? Are you using any other resources to study kanji? Did you learn, or are you planning on learning, the stroke order and how to write kanji? What are your goals with learning kanji?
WK was the first app I ever used to study any kind of Japanese. I believe it’s one of the best tools for beginners as well as advanced learners to study kanji. I want it to continuously improve, giving all learners an even smoother and better learning experience than the one I’ve enjoyed.
To be honest, this doesn’t feel like a genuine question. It feels more like an attempt to invalidate my opinion on WK content, which I don’t really get, especially since you’re level 60 yourself.
Let’s leave the false familiarity and tone policing out of this. If you have constructive feedback about my communication style, feel free to message me privately. Otherwise, let’s keep this thread focused on the topic.
you’re right, it was my goal to be rude to you: I was attempting to reflect my reading of your treatment of @desaturated_yellow back to you. I’m sorry.
@vouchou After reading the thread I also am in agreement that you acted out of line towards @desaturated_yellow and would like you to reconsider how you approach this. If you would have acted like this towards me for one of the first messages on the forum I would have left to never return, and I think that is not okay. Everyone here is very helpful I have interacted with, and I would like to it to stay that way.
So about the actual topic. Are there Kanji that are differentiated due to having 夂 or 攵? I am not knowledgeable about the subject, but feel like this would be more productive than focusing on the origin, because I think the origin, while interesting, is messy anyway. I’ll try investigate further later today if I can find something useful, but wanted to have this message out.
As last I would like to point out that WK radicals are for remembering, not for writing. If you want to learn writing you need an entire different set of radicals anyway, and having to split these at that point would only be one of the changes you need to make.
I mean, a hammer striking an anvil works perfectly well as a mnemonic for 攴. It appears in a handful of 漢字検定1級 characters, like 冦/寇 (foe, enemy), 敍 (the 旧字体 of 叙), and 敲 (strike, beat, hit). In those cases, I’m sure it can create memorable mnemonics.
If you take “winter” at face value, sure, but that’s not a recipe for success with any mnemonic. If you can stretch it a bit to include “to walk slowly,” “to follow,” or “to arrive late,” I’m sure it can do a good job for the 16 kanji that use it. If you struggle with one, come shoot your shot in this Thread.
