How to figure out which group of verbs はなします and べんきょうします belongs to?

Japanese Language Grammar
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I’m going nuts here trying to find out how to figure out where a verb belong and how it conjugates:

Let’ compare はなします and べんきょうします

Clearly, both end in します, right? But the first one, はなします belongs to U-verbs, and will conjugate to はなす in dictionary form, whilst べんきょうします belongs to the irregular verbs group, and conjugates べんきょうする in dictionary form.

How in the world can I figure out if a verb, that ends in します, belongs to U-verbs or to the irregular します-group, if I dont have more information about the verb than the spelling in ます-form?

Thanks!

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If the verb by itself can be a noun without します then it’s normally part of the irregular group. For example

れんしゅうします without the verb ending just means Review
ごうかくします without the verb ending means success
旅行します without the verb ending means travel/trip

So basically, if it can be turned into a noun by just deleting the verb stem then it’s normally an irregular, if it doesn’t make sense without the masu stem then it’s normally the U-verbs

はなします
おとします

those are examples of words that don’t make sense without the masu stem.

Also, する verbs that are irregular typically have two kanji compounds in them cause they come from nouns.

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THANK YOU! What a great rule of thumb!

Of course, it requires of me to be able to understand if the stem means anything in itself, but that can sometimes be checked with Google translate if I don’t understand it.

However, I guess one can be fooled as well, even with the example hanashimasu, since hana means “flower”, so then my stupid ass would go: “oh, it must mean flowergardening with an extra し in it!” or something. :smile:

Also, I knew the one two-or-more-kanji-rule, but forgot about it.

Awesome, thanks!

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I do recommend using https://jisho.org/ if you maybe don’t now about it:3

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Ok, there are a few things going on here.

First, I see you are at the beginning of your studies, so it’s natural that you see the ます form and try to grasp things from it. But I promise you if you keep studying just for a while more, the ます form will quickly stop being the default way things are presented, so it will be pretty obvious if a verb is さ行五段 (話す) or a する verb, to the point you will never really wonder about that again.

That being said, I understand that even being told that, you probably still want something you can do for now (at least I would.)

So the gist is understanding what a する verb is. It is necessarily a word + する, so there are a few strategies you can think.

・If a 熟語 (two kanji making a word) comes before the します, it is most likely a する verb, like your 勉強します, 掃除します, 料理します, 結婚します, etc.

・If there is a hiragana between the kanji and the します, it is pretty guaranteed to be a す verb, 欠かします, 鳴らします, 飛ばします, 落とします.

However, there are still the one kanji + します verbs. At the beginning most of time they will be す verbs (話します、出します、回します、倒します), but as time passes you will start seeing some that are indeed する verbs. So if you can’t check it, just guess for す, but don’t take it for granted. The actually common one I can come up with is 訳します, but as you advance you might see 対します、面します and others, but it is really hard to see them in the end of a sentence, so it shouldn’t be a problem.

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Did not know about that one, thank you!

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You are correct, very beginner. :smile:

I understand what you are saying (at least most of it) :smiley: but unfortunately almost all my practice is still in hiragana, with only a few exceptions where kanji comes into play. Sometimes my study material includes the kanji, and then it makes it much easier to determine where it belongs from what you are saying.

Thank you spending time answering!

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Instead of trying to figure out which group a masu-ending word belongs to, I recommend learning the dictionary forms first, and then conjugating from those.

はなす is a verb, and since it ends す, it’s an u-verb.
べんきょう is a noun that can be made a verb by adding する.

If you’re on a pc, you can use a rikai-addon to find out the dictionary form quickly by hovering your mouse on the word.

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Yeah, if everything is written in Hiragana, it is pretty hard to tell them apart, but there is still something you can do.

If what comes before the します is on on-yomi there is a higher chance it is a する verb. And if it is on kun-yomi it is most likely a す verb.
Of course for actually knowing if it is on or kun you would need the kanji, but there are sounds that just feel like on-yomi and sounds that don’t.

You know those readings that appear all the time in Wanikani? こう、しん、きょう and such are all on-yomi, so their verbs are most likely する verbs. べんきょうします りょこうします しんぱいします and so on.

If the word is a bunch of seemingly random hiragana without long vowels, ん or small ょ ゅ it is mooost likely kun-yomi, so high chances it is a す verb. はなす おとす とばす ならす, etc

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Thank you! That was also a great rule of thumb!

I have noticed here on WaniKani that the on-yomi sounds are a bit different (more chinese sounds I suppose), and that what precious to learn. As you say, i “feels” like it. Thanks!

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My study material doesn’t give me that option unfortunately. At least not yet. We are asked to conjugate from masu-form. Which makes little sense, since it at least for me is easier to figure out the conjugation to all other forms from dictionary form.

rikai-addon? Never heard of it! Can you tell me more?

Thanks!

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In addition to what others have said, I think this is kind of one of those problems which only seems like a problem to you now. Once you have a broader vocabulary and know more kanji and so on you’ll be able to see whether a verb is a する verb or not much more easily and intuitively. It’s not something I’d worry too much about :slightly_smiling_face:

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I remember when I first found out that verbs ending in る could be either ichidan or godan, and I thought my head would explode. Also, how the he’ll am I supposed to know whether かった comes from かう、かつ or かる?! And so on. As you learn more kanji, more vocabulary and see more examples though it becomes like second nature. With your example above, the difference in sound of a word read with kun’yomi and a word read with on’yomi is very different for me, and even without knowing the words I would have guessed べんきょうします to be a jukugo word with する appended to turn it into a verb, because it just sounds like that.

You’ll get used to it so I wouldn’t waste daylight stressing about it. Practice conjugating dictionary forms into polite, negative and different tenses as you learn them and it will be really clear and distinct with time. Mostly.

Edit: I saw you say that your study material is all in polite form. Wanikani is study material, practice on the words you learn here.

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Thanks for support, if feels indeed like my head are going to blow into pieces any minute now. :smiley:

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Found the addon, thanks!

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rikai

It’s and extension for your browser. It’s called rikaikun in chrome and rikaichan in firefox. You can hover your mouse on any Japanese text, and it gives you a neat pop-up that dissects the word as shown in the image.

This particular pop-up tells that 食べました is the polite past form of 食べる, which is read たべる. The meaning is “to eat”.

(v1, vt) means it’s a transitive verb (as opposed to intransitive), and it’s a type 1 verb (る-verb). The ( P) means it’s a common word (so you won’t be laughed at for using it with real Japanese people). Note that many words taught in WK are not common.

For べんきょう the add-on would tell it’s written 勉強, and that it’s an (n, vs) word. The n here means it’s a noun, and vs means it can be made a verb by adding する.

If you click shift, you get a more detailed popup on the kanji which can sometimes be useful. It’s a pretty handy extension.

The only problem is that it’s too easy to start to rely solely on the extension when reading Japanese, instead of trying to read on your own.

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The verbs and their conjugation was the reason I stopped learning japanese in my teens. I thought at that time that it’s impossible to learn all that without a teacher, ever. Time passed, I got used to it, so don’t worry about that too much, @Andersbjurstrom :3 Just read, study and you’ll be fine

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Thanks for the info! I just installed, works great! Thanks! :smiley:

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It’s actually easier to conjugate to て-form from the ます form.

走る, for example, is a godan verb. The て-form is 走って.
見る is an ichidan verb. The て-form is 見て.

Judging from the dictionary form, there is no difference between 走る and 見る.

However, they look very different in ます-form.

走ります → turn ります into って → 走って.
見ます → turn ます into て → 見て.

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Yeah I’d say it’s much of a muchness whether you learn ます form or dictionary form first in terms of ease of conjugation. There are advantages to defaulting to polite Japanese, and for those who only learn the basics / just want it for travel purposes, it makes more sense to learn ます form first.

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