Help with what textbooks to purchase first

You probably don’t need both MNN and Genki. Honestly, they seem to be roughly equivalent. I’ve heard that MNN takes you a little further, but the difference isn’t much, because both of them will get you essentially to the beginning intermediate stage. If MNN spoke to you more, then I’d just try that one, and if you end up frustrated, you could sell it and try Genki instead. Genki and MNN both have their own benefits and drawbacks, and different books work for different people.

A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar is great, though, and you can refer to it as needed, so I can recommend picking that one up regardless of whatever path you end up choosing for grammar!

As far as kanji goes, I’d try a few levels of WK and see how that works out for you before purchasing any other resources. If WK proves to be an effective tool for you, you probably won’t need additional resources for learning how to read kanji at least. You would need to find another way to learn how to write them, though. One user here has helpfully prepared kanji writing sheets that have all of the kanji for each level. There are also loads of scripts you can install that add information like stroke order and semantic-phonetic composition to the kanji pages in WK. WK can get pretty time-intensive, so you probably won’t have a lot of energy to do a whole lot of kanji study outside of your SRS reviews and grammar/vocab study. I’ve been learning to write kanji as I learn them, but most people consider that to be optional at this stage, if your primary goal as a beginner is reading comprehension.

I would also caution you against doing too much, especially as a beginner. That’s a very good way to burn yourself out! I’d recommend doing the first three levels of WK before buying anything. If that goes well for you, you could buy a subscription to WK, then decide on a path for grammar. Starting MNN around level 5 worked out pretty well for me, because by then, I’d gotten good enough at reading hiragana through WK that that part of MNN wasn’t a problem, and I understood enough grammar basics from Japanese Ammo with Misa that adjusting to that wasn’t an issue, either, and kanji no longer scared me thanks to WK.

It’s also a very good idea to develop a daily habit with WK so that you have a regular, predictable daily workload. I do 10-13 lessons daily, and do my reviews three times a day so that I can hit the first three review intervals for the new items. I also use a program called Kaniwani which uses the same SRS as WK, but goes from English to Japanese (another program that can do this is Kamesame). It’s useful to get practice on the other direction, but it also adds a lot of studying time to the WK workload, which you have to be prepared for!

If you manage to do WK consistently for at least 5 levels, you’ll start to get an idea of what speed works for you, and how much time you’ll need to put into it daily to keep up. At that point, I’d recommend adding one other resource, be that MNN or Genki or Tae Kim or Bunpro or any other tool. If you manage to work that other resource into your daily schedule and still have time for another thing, you can consider adding another, but all of this stuff adds up a lot, especially multiple SRS.

I don’t think I’d recommend doing more than two SRS at once, so I’d caution you with Bunpro if you plan on doing WK and Anki (or Kitsun) at the same time. I’m technically doing three, but Kaniwani is just reinforcing the items I’m learning through WK, and my daily Anki review load is very light because it’s tied to my pace through the textbook (I’m working through MNN at a rate of about two weeks a lesson). If this ever gets to be too much for me, my plan is to slow down on WK lessons (which would also slow down Kaniwani).

The knowledge you’re getting from flashcards tends to stick better if you apply it fairly soon after, anyway. SRS is very good at putting a high volume of information in your brain very efficiently, but we learn language by actually using it. That’s why I ended up going with the MNN + WK combo, because the textbook gives me loads of opportunities to apply the vocab and the grammar that I’m learning together instead of trying to learn a bunch of different aspects of the language in isolation. It’s why many people on this forum have found success with primarily learning through immersion, because when reading native materials, you’ll also be learning vocab and grammar together with context, and that will benefit you more than studying flashcards in a vacuum. The language in a textbook is more artificial than what you’d find in manga or anime, but textbooks can give you a good foundation of knowledge that you can then build off of by seeking out native materials once you can read basic Japanese.

I think it’s very easy to collect way too many tools when trying to figure out how to study Japanese, and trying to do too many things at once can burn you out or cause you to give up because you get paralyzed by indecision. There are loads of options, and some work better for some people than others. I wouldn’t listen to anyone who claims that any one method is the single most efficient or effective method, because even just on this forum, there are people who have reached a high level of proficiency in the language with a variety of different methods. I think the most popular recommendations here tend to be 1) going with a textbook, or 2) downloading a flashcard deck of core vocab words and combining that with a grammar SRS, or 3) forgoing textbooks and core vocab decks entirely and trying to engage with native materials as soon as possible either by prelearning some specific vocab and grammar before attempting to read, or by looking stuff up as you go. You’ll find people in all three camps who feel very passionately about their choice, and believe it to be the right choice for them. The best choice for someone else may or may not be the best choice for you!

All of that said, I am extremely far from being an expert, haha! I only have a few months of experience actively studying the language myself, but I’ve read a lot of discussions on this forum and elsewhere, and my main takeaway from everything that I’ve read is that these are questions that have more than one answer. I wouldn’t take any one opinion (including any of mine haha) as absolute gospel truth about the best way to learn. Most of us are speaking purely from our own experiences, and those tend to differ a whole lot.

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For me Nihongo No Mori would be stage 2. Wouldn’t it be too discouraging for beginners?

This is what I did/doing
Stage 1. Hiragana + Katakana + basic vocab + kick off Wanikani
Stage 2. Tae Kim + Bunpro + Wanikani + beginner podcast + youtube
Stage 3. Tobira + Bunpro + Wanikani + Native Jap entertainments without subtitles + Nihongo no Mori
Stage 4. Not there yet, probably similar to stage 3 but materials with higher level of complexity.

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If you go in expecting to understand every word they say, yes. However, they have a fair amount of N5 stuff that you can pick up without having to understand what they are saying imo.

I have a friend who started using it right away. They were fine. :person_shrugging:

Yeah, sorry, I should’ve put this as stage one probably :sweat_smile:.

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My best recommendation would be the Japanese From Zero series. There are accompanying videos on YouTube by the creator, so you can follow along.

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Honestly, I’m enjoying Minna for self-study - I have the main textbook and translation guide - I think the added reading and listening books would have been helpful. Kinda neutral on the kanji books because writing is not a big priority for me, and WK is covering reading.

I really like having pages that are all in Japanese to look at - it makes transitioning to other things in Japanese not feel as intimidating. I too picked it up primarily because I wanted the thing that was all in Japanese, and definitely read a lot of ‘Genki is best’ things - in the end, it’ll be whatever you enjoy. Minna is more ‘workplace’ oriented, which might be helpful given your aims. In the end, you’re not marrying the book - If you start and hate it, you can change books. If you’re hesitant, maybe you want to only get the main text and translation guide for Minna now to bring the cost down a bit (I do not have the others - they look like nice to haves, but I haven’t felt like I’m missing something by not having them)

As you can tell, everyone has an opinion, and most of them are different - honestly, it will work out to whatever works for you. I find myself supplementing Minna with other info online if I see something in the wild that looks kind of familiar, but not quite like what I saw in Minna - usually the case that I just haven’t reached the more detailed/general version of that point. I do feel stupid reading the exercises out loud to myself, but, you know, you do what you have to do.

Good luck!

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Here are some other options to think about:

  1. Rather than looking at Kodansha Learners course, skip that and get its Graded Reading Sets instead for reading practice. There are other options for reading too, like Learn to Read in Japanese.

  2. And rather than Tobira/Intermediate Japanese eventually take a look at Genki’s continuation called Quartet, which is very modern and visually appealing.

Regarding reading both MNN and Genki. I would wait until you get to the end of one set, then think whether you want to reinforce what you’ve already learnt by going over it again in the other set (which is initially what I had planned to do), or just push on. Most likely you’ll want to just push on rather than covering the same material that will be too easy for you, especially if you are getting lots of reading practice in, which should be a priority sooner rather than later.

But my most important advice is just to actually start studying and do something! Forums are a great way to waste time, when that same time could be spent actually studying and enjoying the language. I’ve fallen into that trap myself quite a few times! LOL! So good luck!

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I think that’s probably the hardest part for many learners when they are trying to start doing the immersion.

However, whoever could coop with that would progress faster. So if OP could endure the frustation that would be a good way to start learning Japanese.

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My university uses it’s own resources but a lot of the things we study are straight out of the Genki textbook. I’ve used Mina no Nihongo and Genki. For self study I prefer Genki because the explanations are in English. From what I understand you can buy an additional guide in English for Mina no Nihongo, but for me using Genki was the best option as there are a lot of youtube resources online. I’m pretty sure you can find Mina no Nihongo youtube resources too. There are so many really good apps to help in Japanese. Renshu, Deer Lingo etc. It just depends on how you want to study. If you do well with textbooks, make your own flashcards and make sure you dedicate study time. You can get there.

lmao, people really waste money on formal education and physical materials in [current year]?

Are you implying that formal education is unnecessary?

I think natiiix is implying that in person education during a pandemic is a risky business.

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