Changing phone language

Off-topic

Because “distanciation” doesn’t have that meaning in French. It’s not about ‘bad associations’, but rather about commonly accepted meanings of the word, at least up to that point in time. I asked my French room mate, who’s younger than me (he’s 19 or 20) and thus should be less attached to old definitions, about it during the confinement, because I quite frankly was surprised to hear the criticisms levelled against the term “distanciation sociale”. I thought it was fine, though I frankly had never used the verb “distancier”, which is what gives us “distanciation”. After some thought, he told me that it was true that “distanciation” didn’t have a physical, concrete meaning in French, but rather an abstract one, though the amount of time he took suggested that he had never considered the question before. We can call it the evolution of a language. I’ll grant you that.

More off-topic

I think we should just agree to disagree at this point. I’ve already conceded that it has probably entered common usage, which means I can and probably should use this word in order to be understood. I’m not willing to back up any further. I believe our priorities and the things we ‘care about as language learners’ are also different, because I prioritise correctness over just being understood. I am by no means accusing you of not bothering with correctness, and I’m pretty sure your Japanese is better than mine, but I think we can agree that we attribute different levels of priority to correctness and comprehensibility, and that we use different yardsticks to measure correctness. My yardstick for correctness is what’s in widely respected dictionaries and what’s considered correct by grammarians, official rules and similar sources. I still twinge on the inside whenever I knowingly violate a French grammar rule in order to avoid standing out because it’s ignored by almost everyone in informal speech. I also wince when I hear native speakers make mistakes with respect to formal grammar, even though I know that their usage is acceptable in certain circles. To me, it’s important to know what’s officially or formally correct, and what is just common usage, so that I can adapt my language use to the context I’m in. It might be because I’m from a country in which non-standard English is spoken on a daily basis, so ‘code-switching’ is a very important thing for me since I wouldn’t be able to keep the two grammars and lexicons from spilling into each other otherwise. That’s why I’m so attached to figuring this out, even if it looks like I’m just splitting hairs.

画面 is actually the picture that is seen by both users, which I think you could qualify as being ‘co-owned’ or at least ‘jointly had’. I personally see no conflict with the kanji here.

Interesting, though we don’t know who was responsible for the translation. Perhaps the focus is on the end result, seeing as an intermediate step (e.g. sending a link) is possible. I can imagine someone saying 「共有しましょう」to suggest sharing something, which wouldn’t require the common ownership or experience to be presently realised, though I obviously don’t have any experience with usage to back this feeling up. I guess everyone’s examples are gradually convincing me…

Kinda on-topic, but skippable aside from the sentence related to 共有

Maybe I should explain just one more thing about myself: because of my tendency to code-switch and put up walls between the languages I know, and a certain level of perfectionism, I tend to be a purist when I pick up new languages. The reason I try to abandon translations as quickly as I can is because I want to avoid unnecessary foreign influence in my use of the target language. When I see similarities between how a word is used in the target language and how it is used in my language, I don’t go, ‘Goody, another easy word!’ My question is ‘where do the similarities stop?’ I don’t like having to accept foreign influence on usage in my target language unless I can see that it’s well-established and accepted as correct. That’s why I’m so reluctant to accept this use of 共有: I want to see it in a Japanese product, because for now, it still feels mostly like a bad translation for products coming from the Anglosphere, even though I’m slowly warming to the idea in certain cases. Similarly, I still refuse to say “j’ai réalisé” in French for ‘I (have) realised’, forcing myself instead to stick to the relatively long “je me suis rendu compte”, even though many of my friends use the former, because none of the other meanings of the verb “réaliser” in French match or come close to this idea. This self-imposed discipline (or hair-splitting, if you prefer) may make me look like a stickler, but it helps me minimise unnatural-but-understandable expressions in my speech, avoiding confusion for native speakers and making my usage acceptable to as many native speakers as possible. I also see it as a way of preserving the authenticity of the target language, instead of contributing to the propagation of some sort of English-based ‘globish’ that encourages everyone to express themselves based on the norms and thought processes found in the world’s dominant language.

In conclusion, yes, my priorities are likely very different from those of a typical language learner. Perhaps I also chose a bad example, since it seems that 共有する being used to mean ‘transmit in order to share’ is fairly widespread, at least in products coming from the Anglosphere that are used in Japan. @Ddjross and everyone else are free to ignore my concerns. I simply wished to raise awareness of the fact that some default translations are poorly done, and that it might be worthwhile, if only for expanding one’s vocabulary and for one’s own reference, to look up other possibilities instead of absorbing interface translations as correct or natural in all circumstances, since English words and their translations do not necessarily correspond perfectly.

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I see that deleting the post like half an hour ago was still too late :slight_smile:

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Yeah, I kinda started replying shortly after you posted it. By the time I saw that you had deleted it, I was almost done, so… well, feel free to read my explanations for why I’m such a stickler (or don’t read them, since they’re pretty long). Anyhow, yes, I can see that this usage of 共有 comes up in various examples which have been shared by @Ddjross @Naphthalene @Arzar33 and so on, so it’s definitely well understood. I’m just not sure if it’s idiomatic, and so I’ll leave that up to others to verify while doing some searches on my own. What I’ve found in dictionaries so far along with my knowledge of Chinese supports my stance, but it’s quite possible that Japanese is evolving and it just hasn’t been picked up by such sources just yet.

PS: It’s also true that in Chinese, there’s a different word for ‘share for others’ enjoyment’ (分享) that doesn’t overlap with 共有 (‘to jointly have/own’), so for all my purist aspirations, my suspicions may stem from the influence of my experience with Chinese.

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Well, LINE, which is a Japanese App, uses it (e.g. https://guide.line.me/ja/chats-calls-notifications/calls-and-chatlives/watchtogether.html) At the same time, I don’t think it’s a good example since developers have the same “app” culture and would use that word whether it’s correct or not.

By the way, that’s a French word, as far as I know :sweat_smile:
Edit: oh, it seems it’s not? Weird. As in, I’ve only used that word in French, but it’s not a French word… huh.

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I won’t deny that my desire to use ‘Anglosphere’ came from my experience of using French, but ‘Anglosphere’ is an entry in the Oxford Dictionary of English that is recommended to be used as ‘the Anglosphere’. I checked the dictionary before publishing my post. :wink:

I’ll take a look at LINE, though I quite agree with the point you raised. Also, in Japan, you can get hired as a developer with no Japanese language skills at all since there’s such a shortage, so the developer might not be a Japanese speaker at all. Perhaps I’ll look around at other Japanese social media platforms and sites (e.g. online bookstores).

I mean, LINE (the company) is employing roughly 10.000 people if you include freelancers. There has to be a few native speakers in the mix :stuck_out_tongue:

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Fair enough, and I’m pretty sure at least the head of software development is a native speaker. I was just raising the possibility, however remote. :stuck_out_tongue:

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The only thing that stuck out to me was what you said here.

I mean, I don’t know what you’re talking about exactly since there aren’t examples (which I probably wouldn’t understand anyway), but yeah, we aren’t going to see eye to eye.

Like, what are we talking about here, the equivalent of using “gonna” instead of “going to”? Or “there’s” when more than one thing is actually referred to? In conversation? That would make you cringe?

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Probably using the wrong conjugation mode. The subjonctif is usually ignored in favor of the indicatif in spoken French, even though that’s wrong. I can relate to that problem, actually.

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So maybe if we’re using Japanese as a comparison, ら-dropping? Would that be equally cringeworthy? (I know I wasn’t asking you before) I do that all the time, since it’s useful, but it would obviously be wrong on a test.

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Hm, we are getting way off topic (sorry about that OP), but anyway, it’s hard for me to give a comparison. I don’t think ら-dropping is equivalent though, since not doing it would not feel weird.

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I tried It a month ago… I can’t do this at the moment… I need more kanji and more words.
I wanted to do a post like this, looks so strage that lots of people dunno they can do It :face_with_monocle:
I also do It with my computer.

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I have kept my old Android tablet to install a Japanese system one day.
I also have on my desktop PC a virtual Ubuntu in Japanese, but I am a little disappointed because many things are in katakanized English like:
image
It is a good training to read katakana, though.

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No, no, uh… stuff like “pour pas que” instead of “pour que … ne… pas” (roughly like saying ‘so not that he will do that’ instead of ‘so that he will not do that’), though I know it’s very common.

Oh, good point here. I went down south over the summer, and I noticed how my friends kept doing that (they’re bilingual native speakers though). Still, as an English speaker, I can tolerate this somewhat because I know the subjunctive can be such a headache, and I’m not always sure whether I should use it in French.

I think other examples might include people saying “censé de + [infinitive]” instead of “censé + [infinitive]” for ‘supposed to [infinitive]’ (though this is more of a non-native mistake) or spelling “censé” as “sensé” (which is very common online). I’ve also already mentioned the not-universally-accepted usage of “réaliser” as an equivalent of ‘to realise (the truth, a fact etc)’. Using the wrong preposition also gets me, though I do that sometimes as well. (e.g. I still can’t understand why we “obliger [someone] à [do something]”, but are “obligé de [do something]”. That’s ‘to oblige’ in the active and passive voice respectively, by the way.)

I’m presuming you’re talking about dropping ら in られる potential forms? For me, I guess I haven’t had enough experience with Japanese to say how I would feel. I heard it once in an anime the other day, and it didn’t jar me, but maybe that’s because I’m still doing my best to comprehend as much as I can at this point. I’m probably still not fluent enough to have the mental space to worry about that. Also, informal Japanese tends to drop or shorten syllables, so perhaps I wouldn’t find it that strange? I think something that more commonly irritates me is direct translations that make little sense in the target language. (Side note: @Naphthalene the LINE page you sent me is about screen-sharing, which I felt was an acceptable use of 共有. I think I only take issue with 共有 when it’s used for something that needs to be sent or when ‘common ownership’ isn’t so much the focus as ‘passing on information’ or ‘sharing for social enjoyment’ is.)

You know, the truth is, I think ‘improper’ or ‘non-standard’ usage only really troubles me at the ‘learner’ level? I mean, I can accept it, to an extent, as another register of the language. There are tons of words that I use in informal French that I would never use in an essay or a serious, polite conversation. I only really get rankled when people are unable or unwilling to code-switch (which is probably why certain ‘non-negotiable’ mistakes jar me, because they’re just wrong, and not simply another register). Then again, like I said, this probably has to do with where I grew up: in Singapore, a lot of people mix Singlish into their Standard English without realising it, and try to be formal by using rarer forms (e.g. ‘had’ instead of ‘has’, ‘could’ instead of ‘can’, ‘would’ instead of ‘will’) with no regard for the grammatical reasons each word should or shouldn’t be used. It’s so bad that it ends up in newspaper articles, which teachers often recommend to students as a model for good writing. I, on the other hand, try to keep the two separate, because I’m aware that almost all my grammatical mistakes in school were a result of mixing Singlish and Standard English. That’s why I tend to advocate that learners be aware of standard, correct usage before using slang or common expressions that are technically incorrect, instead of lumping everything together for use in all contexts. In short, I don’t have a problem with non-standard usage per se, as long as it’s recognised as non-standard, and separated from standard usage where necessary.

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i’m three years in and it is still a struggle ! :rofl:

:slightly_smiling_face:

It was very interesting reading the conversation - and it has made me think a little bit more about assuming the phone Japanese could / should be used in actually conversation. so Thanks :slight_smile:

In fairness, although I was surprised I didn’t think to change it earlier - It may be that only after getting to a certain level with Kanji and vocab is it useful / doable .

Yeah - i did think maybe there was a bit of ‘over-katakanization’ (lol). But since i need katakana practice, this is kinda of a good thing for me as well.

:rofl: fine by me ! seems like a perfectly reasonable and interesting discussion ! I was slightly surprised to see ‘27 replies’ this morning !! ha

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Ah I see, sorry. I misunderstood that point. Uh, then yes, nothing really comes to mind at this moment.

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OK, I did a little run through the interfaces of sites selling books, since they often include social media buttons for people to ‘share’ their favourite products. (For reference, I used the Shield Hero light novel since I like it and I know how to type its name in Japanese. I don’t think that should skew the results though, aside from the fact that it probably won’t show up on sites selling non-fiction or full-length novels. Here’s the page on which I found links to the other book site: https://www.kadokawa.co.jp/product/301401000959/)

The word used varies depending on the site considered. In many cases, sites simply turned the logos of top social networks into buttons and left it at that, or reused the Japanese name for the operation that would be performed on the site (e.g. ツイート for Tweet, いいね for a Facebook like, ブックマーク for some service called B!). However, here are some of the words that were used where ‘share’ probably would have been used in English:

  • シェア(する)(I think this was the most common option. It appeared on Amazon, which admittedly isn’t Japanese, and on several other sites.
  • 共有(する) (if I remember correctly, only Bookwalker used this)
  • LINE で送る (granted, this isn’t the most universal example, but in English, we would almost definitely have said, ‘Share with LINE’)
  • シェア (on the Facebook button)

It certainly seems like 共有 is understood, but it also seems that the concept might still be somewhat foreign (hence the preference for シェア) and that a more descriptive expression is sometimes preferred (like with the LINE example).

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Really? They’re more accurate?
I found that straight after changing to Japanese google only suggested things that I had previously looked at in Japanese.

Cut to endless washoku articles, uniqlo and for some reason Twice

The definition of シェア just happens to be 共有すること

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What I got on 大辞林 was「 ① 分かつこと。共有すること」. I would say it’s closer to the first in this case, since information about the books is being ‘distributed’. この作品を共有, which I saw on Bookwalker, sounds like an invitation to order a book together. These two related but different definitions are proof that the concepts involved are distinct, at the least to whoever wrote this dictionary. In any case, it seems that 共有 is not the only option, even if it’s usable.